Bundle up, folks. It’s colder than a bucket of penguin crap out there. I suggest you stay inside with a nice hot beverage and ponder the following:
- The Eiffel Tower was originally intended to stand for only 20 years.
- "Taxi" is spelled the same in English, French, Romanian, German, Dutch, Spanish, Danish, Norweigan, Czech, Swedish, Slovak, Portuguese and Norweigan.
- When computed at retail prices, marijuana is the nation’s most valuable cash crop.
And today’s trivia question: What is the victim’s name in the movie and board game "Clue?"
Filed Under Uncategorized ·
The victim, of course, is John Boddy. What I want to know is who killed him, where and how.
It was Saddam in the grand palace with his stash Robitussin.
They’re getting Jimmy Carter to weigh in on Alito’s nomination on the Today Show this morning. That should be entertaining.
Also, there are secret CIA Prisons. Plenty of fodder for the Open Comments thread today…
No to mention today is my birthday.
Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday dear Duhmoose, Happy Birthday to you!!!
The Dems are having a meltdown right in front of our eyes. They didnt get Dr.Evil Karl Rove. They are losing Tom Delay. Katrina is out of the headlines. They are running from Sheehan.They lost Dan Rather and they are about to lose the Supreme Court. Better get some duct tape for Harry Reids head. If GWB had some stones he could have really changed the country and put the nail in the Dems coffin years ago.
I think we should charge the majority (all) of the media with treason and lock them away in the secret CIA prisons.
gregg, Trent Lott suggested yesterday that Rove step down. Why do you think this? Read between the lines.
Make sure everyone checks out Peter Schweizer’s new book “Do as I Say,(Not as I do.) Profiles in Liberal Hypocrisy.”
Nancy Pelosi forbids union labor on her massive vineyard operations. Barbra Streisand takes a motor home to appointments in Beverly Hills so she can use her own bathroom…. It’s great!
headshaker
Can’t stand it that nothing sticks can you? Trent Lott needs to retire and go away. That spineless clown would rather appease the left than stand and fight for his own party.
Squawk: That or Sen. Lott may actually believe what he said. I heard Patrick J. Buchanan say as much yesterday on Hannity’s show. A person who stands on principle, and doesn’t excuse the behavior of like minded partisans, is exceedingly rare and to be treasured.
we need to let the CIA, farmboys, investigate the prisoners without interfering. We’ve got ways to make em talk, that we dont need prevy to.
Willie
Senator Lott has the spine of a jellyfish. He let the democrats railroad him out of his seat as majority leader as majority leader. He was one of the REPUBLICAN senators that blocked Ken Starr in his investigation of President Clinton. He is an appeaser and does not have the courage to defend himself when wrongly accused so why should I lend credence to him now?
What you are seeing with the Liberal Democrats is a continued use of a tool they discovered with President Nixon. (Nixon got what he deserved btw) They know they can prosecute anyone through the media. They know that they can bring accusations and the Republicans will roll over and sacrifice their own. Newt and Lott are prime examples. When was the last time you saw this in reverse? The Democrats fight tooth and nail on all accusations of their own.
As for PJB I’ll reserve my comments about him for a later time because I do not feel like writing a book about him here on LST.
squawk, spoken like a true follower.
Headshaker Newsflash to Squawk (I’ll use bumpkin lingo henceforth): it done ain’t just Trent saying it on the GOP side!
Rove is not off the hook. Those that think so need to read Mr. Fitzgeralds statements. Delay gets a new judge. Not sure how that clears him. The Dems spanked the repubs yesterday. Things are not as rosey as those on the right would have you believe here on LST.
Squawk: You know better than that. It was the GOP that forced Lott to step down as Majority Leader because of his silly remarks about Sen. Thurmond’s 1948 presidential run. They also had quite a bit of help from the White House who was pushing Sen. Frist for that post because they didn’t like Sen. Lott. The Democrats had nothing to do with that. You can rightfully blame the Dems for many things, but pushing Sen. Lott out is not one of them.
Welcome back Feagan. It’s been lonely w/o you.
Gee Willie I am humbled. Had to take some time off to make some money. Damn if life does not get in the way sometimes.
You gotta learn to combine the two!
headshaker
Here is a countdown clock for you to watch while you wait with baited breath for President Bushs’ removal from office. While I loathe to advertise for anyone when I am not compensated, you can buy a key chain at the site to watch when you are not online.
Life does get in the way at times, but it beats the hell outta the alternative.
Working on that Willie, I am close, but not there yet.
Interesting reading the comments yesterday. There seemed to be a celebration that Delay got a new judge. Is that……. Judge shopping ? I thought the conservatives hated that kind of thing.
MM, you are correct about that.
LOL I’m not waiting for his removal because he was never really put into place. He’s a puppet.
As usual, here is another situation LST cannot defend, hence we see ridicule or no response at all.
Don’t take it personally, you’re in the majority.
Willie
You are correct about him getting a not so gentle push from the repubs. He still did not have the courage to stand up to defend himself. Senator Lott is indicative of what is wrong with the republicans in the federal government.
Welcome back Feagan
Nice to see your smiling face again. Don’t you just hate it when doing the right and responsible thing (making money) gets in the way of your fun?
Read the entire story.
“…with his investigation all but over, prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has found no criminal conspiracy and no violations of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, which makes it a crime in some circumstances to disclose the names of undercover CIA operatives. Among other problems, Plame doesn’t seem to fit the act’s definition of a “covert agent” — someone who “has within the last five years served outside the United States.” By 2003, Plame had apparently been working in Langley, Va., for at least six years, which means that, mystery of mysteries, the vice president’s chief of staff was indicted for covering up something that wasn’t a crime.
…the one undisputed liar in this whole sordid affair doesn’t work for the administration. In his attempts to turn his wife into an antiwar martyr, Joseph C. Wilson IV has retailed more whoppers than Burger King”
Hmmmm…..
Comments anyone…
Squawk, truth be told I like what I do, so its not so bad. But yes, I hate to miss the interaction here.
headshaker
Me take it personally? You give yourself too much credit.
“As usual, here is another situation LST cannot defend, hence we see ridicule or no response at all.”
Ummm sorry but any opinion is my own and does not necessarily represent the owners, staff or advertisers of LoneStar Times.
Squawk: Agreed. Sen. Lott has been too long in the Senate. He’s part of the club. It’s up to the people of Mississippi to send him packing. I believe he sustained quite a bit of damage to his home there during Katrina and is actually (if political gossip is to be believed) considering retiring when his term expires. I think after a while members of both parties forget why they’re there in the first place and become too chummy with one another and the lobbyists roaming the halls of Congress. That doesn’t mean I support term limits, but the voters need to recognize that and term limit them through elections.
MMI:
lying to the FBI and to a grand jury are indictable offenses in and of themselves whether or not a crime has been committed. The old saying, “the truth shall set you free” must not have been taught to Mr. Libby (allegedly).
Willie
I heard the same “rumor” about his retiring. Not soon enough for my liking. My exwife is from Miss. and I can tell you for sure they love the guy there. I likely got my head taken off when I opened my mouth over there criticizing Senator Lott.
I am undecided about term limits. There are some good politicians out there (Dems and Repubs alike) that I would hate to see limited, but I can’t have it both ways.
MM&I. In Fitzgeralds own words.
“It was known that I CIA officers indentity was blown, it was known that there was a leak.” “and given that national security was at stake”
So I guess Ms. Plame was infact covert. No question about it.
Why was Libby not charged with something else ? Lets turn to Mr. Fitzgerald again.
” the umpire gets sand thrown in his eyes. He is trying to figure out what happened and someone obstructed their view” “It prevents us from making the fine judgements we want to make.”
“This is a very serious matter and comprimising national security information is a very serious matter.”
“We need to know the truth.”
The right is attempting to white wash what happened. Those that are did not listen nor have they read what Mr. Fitzgerald said. I suggest you do.
I’m still waiting for a million/billionaire to hire me.
31) Squawk: I believe we already have term limits…they’re called elections. I don’t believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. Each candidate should be judged on their performance while in office and not subjected to an imposed limit. That would let voters off the hook and make them (us) lazier and more disconnected than we already are. Just my opinion.
Spark:
maybe you should invest in marijuana farming? That seems to be our most valuable cash crop!
Willie:
Lovely idea but I don’t have the space. Not to mention that the police frown on it a bit.
It’s only a crime if you get caught!
Have a great day and good luck with your search. If successful, let me know if you need a butler.
In the spirit of “a picture is worth a thousand words,” let me offer this political cartoon as my statement on the Democrats reaction to Rove and Libby.
Spark
LOL, that is like investing in the state lottery for retiremnt.
Willie
#34
Awww c’mon Willie, there ya go parsing words on me.
;~)
Hey, you never know. I’m sure that there are many highly educated wealthy people who frequent this site because it is the smart thing to do (wink wink, nudge nudge). I figured that if I shared with the group that I was looking for just one of those individuals that I might get lucky
29. Willie Says: …members of both parties forget why they’re there in the first place and become too chummy with one another and the lobbyists roaming the halls of Congress. …[T]he voters need to recognize that and term limit them through elections.
You hit the nail on the head there. Too many voters (Repub, Dem and otherwise) tend to vote either straight party ticket or by name recognition only. Or not at all, especially in non-Presidential year elections. Because of this, too many incumbents that really SHOULD be run out of office simply skate by and keep their seats term after term. There is so much information available for voters who are interested in learning about the candidates and their views and/or records, you would think people would put forth a little more effort.
Don’t know why Feagan, Willie, and the Libs are so smug. They promised us the exposure of (yet another) vast conspiracy on the right, and indictment of one of the most powerful Republicans alive today.
They delivered a guy named “Scooter.”
They insist a crime was commited with esposure of Plame’s name, even though the prosecuter said there was no crime there.
They stand up in righteous indignation when a Republican is indicted for making (alleged) misstatements to a Grand Jury. But when Bubba Clinton lied to a Grand Jury it was “Everybody does it” and politically motivated.
I’ll remind them once again, thought, that Bubba copped a plea to Obstruction.
It remains to be seen how “Scooter’s” case turns out. If he’s guilty, I will be glad to turn the key on the cell door. But that’s what being a Conservative is all about, IMHO: When it’s your guys fault, make him bite the bullet.
Willie and Feagan on the other hand will make excuses and claim foul.
And then claim on this forum that they aren’t “Clinton Supporters.”
If weed is our most vauable cash crop, and you get just as loaded smoking it as you do drinking alcohol…then why not make it legal and tax it like cigarettes and liquor? I don’t smoke it, but then I dont drink beer either.
What am I missing here? I’m thinking property tax relief if we get this tax going? Of course, they would just find somewhere else to spend the extra income and not give us relief like the Lottery thievery. (Thank you Ann Richards!..I love ya honey because you are a feisty broad with fire in your eyes, but that was just meaness!)
#42
Scooter was an advisor to Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. I think that makes him pretty powerful.
Fitzgerald never said there was “no crime there”.
in fact Scooter was indicted on Obstruction and making false statements. you might want to read what Mr. Fitzgerald has to say about it all.
Don’t really know what Clinton has to do with any of this. Can you help me there. Yet again proof positive that you repubs are obsessed with Clinton.
Hey good news. Looks as if Sen.Mike DeWine (r) of Ohio might go down. Yep Paul Hackett, Iraq war veteran Democrat is way up in the polls.
One down.
#32 Feagan
In Fitzgeralds own words.
“It was known that I CIA officers indentity was blown, it was known that there was a leak.” “and given that national security was at stake”
Again…Plame doesn’t seem to fit the act’s definition of a “covert agent” — someone who “has within the last five years served outside the United States.” By 2003, Plame had been working in Langley, Va., for at least six years. The ‘leak’ identified someone that used to be a ‘covert agent’ after the time frame had expired for it to be a crime.
The vice president’s chief of staff was indicted for covering up something that wasn’t a crime.
“The right is attempting to white wash what happened. ”
Please, Feagan, tell those of us blind to the situation exactly what happened and how it was a crime. (Do not address the indictments…as we all agree that if he was guilty of committing those acts before a grand jury, he should be convicted.)
MM&I.
You read the quote provided. Then you act as if it was not said.
Fact. she was covert. Fact. Her cover was blown.
Scooter was indicted for 1. Obstruction 2. Making false statments. Not as you say trying to cover something that was not a crime.
You can argue it if you want. But you are arguing against facts. Thats ok. But I can’t reason with that.
MM&I
So to you, what Scooter Libby did was alright ? That is what you are saying in your comment. Ok, so now we have a new standard. Even if, as you suggest, Ms. Plame had not been outside the US for six years she had contacts and agents that are or were. Those have been comprimised. Her work as a weapons expert has been comprimised. Ok with you, just politics.
Not ok with me.
Feagan…Calm down.
If Libby revealed Plame’s identity, it was:
FACT - After the 5 year time frame had expired.
FACT - Not a crime.
I am not arguing the basis of the indictments. But…FACT the indictments were not for revealing her identity within the five year time frame.
“So to you, what Scooter Libby did was alright ?”
I do not believe “committing false statements”, “obstructing justice” or “committing perjury” before a grand jury is ‘alright’. Those are serious offenses.
If the law states that an agent’s cover must remain confidential for five years after returning to the US and if Libby revealed her identity after that time expired, then I believe no crime was committed.
We can continue the banter regarding the lenghtening the five year period…
Feagan, they cannot defend the indefensible. Some try, but they only make themselves look more foolish. The smart ones (paradoxically speaking) just change the subject or attack the evil liberals.
Watch the personal attacks, Headshaker. Last warning.
I’m not sure how you get “defending the indefensible” from this statement:
Matt, my last post was mild compared to the other stuff posted here.
You never answered my question as to why it’s OK for the editors and their “followers” to launch personal attacks constantly (do I need to provide the evidence?).
Why the double standard?
Mike, thanks for providing a glimmer of hope.
headshaker…
You failed to address anything I said in #49…
Criminy Dutch Feagan…you are a practioner of “selective reading?” Or perhaps outright intentional obfuscation.
Here it is AGAIN. Read it slowly for comprehension, and try not to move your lips when you do:
“But with his investigation all but over, prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald has found no criminal conspiracy and no violations of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act”
No Conspiracy
No Violations of the Intelligence Identities Act
Scooter might have told a lie, which will take a Court of Law to decide.
That’s all you got…try and deal with it.
I will not defend the indefensible as you guys do That’s what Clinton has to do with it, BTW. You vehemently, loudly, and energetically defended (and continue to defend) a man who lied to a Grand Jury, simply because he was “one of yours.” You shot your credibility in the foot when you did that, and Bubba shot it higher up when he copped his plea.
If Scooter lied, then myself and the greater majority of conservatives will insist he go to jail, PERIOD. Myself and the rest of us will NOT do what you guys did when your Hero lied to a Grand Jury.
Missing now: The attempt to paint Fitzgerald in the same way that you guys painted Starr.
Missing are the statements and defenses that “Everybody does it” when it comes to testifying before a Grand Jury.
Nobody is defending Scooter for the crime of which he is accused: Lying to a Grand Jury. Any statments being made by folks on this forum in this regard are those with which the Special Prosecutor agreed:
No Conspiracy
No Violation of the Identities Act.
Stop lying to everybody and trying to make it look like we’re defending lying to a Grand Jury, or to make it seem as if Fitzgerald verified your paranoid fantasy.
Hypocrisy is what really killed you guys with me a long, long time ago. You have no credibility whatsoever in this matter, regardless of how many times you try and claim the Moral High Ground with sanctimonious statements.
MMI, do you believe that Plame was “outed” as retribution for Wilson’s article?
Or do you believe it’s just a serious misunderstanding because these are just great guys?
sarge,
1. They all lie, Republican or Democrat. Wake up.
2. One of the reasons Fitzgerald couldn’t prove the outing of Plame was because they all lied. Read his comments. It’s a Catch-22.
3. Some things cannot be defended, yet many still try. If you’re not one of them, then don’t worry about it.
#57 - I admit that there’s a lot I don’t know about this case, but I am far from convinced that Plame was even sufficiently undercover to have ‘outing’ her be a possibility. If she was, however, I won’t offend it.
Who (besides Libby) All Lied? I am going to treat that claim with skepticism until I see more indictments and/or convictions. Besides, if the best the investigator can come up with is “Everyone Lied” as a reason for little or no results to his investigation, then I would suggest that maybe his investigation skills need enhancement, or that maybe they are looking for things that aren’t there.
I haven’t made up my mind for sure on the above yet, and I will say now that I am not trying to ‘defend the indefensible’ because of someone is found guilty of a crime, then let them serve their time. I could easily turn this around and say that you’re convicting those who still have the presumption of innocence, and you certainly aren’t any more omniscient than I am.
headshaker,
re: personal attacks, I was once reprimanded for a rather mild invective, “wing nut” while at the same time being called much worse for my opinions. There is a double standard here but it’s their playground so they make the rules.
Besides, this “non-crime” is just the tip of the iceberg much like a memorable third-rate burglary. Time will tell and we will see all in this corrupt administration brought to justice.
Christ jimb, They are politicians. They get paid to lie! The better the liar the better politician they are considered.
Both sides are liars! Its cover your butt at all costs!
There is no distinction!
It is a one party system.
Thats why we need to make damn sure we elect folks like Dan Patrick.
Like him or not he is the real deal.
No More Incumbents!
Headshaker…
You STILL failed to address anything I said in #49…
MMI,
Forget the 5-year period for outing a CIA agent for a minute. If that were an issue, then why the investigation in the first place? Even Bush acknowledged the leak was serious.
It’s clear that her name was “publicized” to hurt Wilson. Do you not see or get this?
61. The preceeding was a (non-)paid political ad for Dan Patrick for Senate.
Wow, everyone take a breath and calm down. Everyone is getting worked up over things that we have no idea about.
MMI: #49) Since the grand jury deliberations are secret, we have no idea if the reason why Mr. Libby wasn’t indicted for the Plame outing was due to the five year period or not. That may have had nothing to do with it. It COULD have been because the five year period you speak of had expired OR it could be because Mr. Libby’s failure to tell the truth while under oath hampered the investigation to such an extent that Mr. Fitzgerald couldn’t indict. We’ll probably never know.
Here’s what we do know. Mr. Fitzgerald, at the request of the Justice Department, investigated the outing of a covert CIA agent. During the course of his investigation, Mr. Fitzgerald learned that Mr. Libby lied to FBI agents and lied to a federal grand jury. As these are serious crimes in and of themselves, Mr. Fitzgerald indicted Mr. Libby on 5 courts pertaining to his failure to tell the truth while under oath. The investigation into the CIA leak remains open.
We know nothing more, and nothing less. Everything else is spin by one side or the other.
Headshaker;
What is clear to me is that her name became public as a means of informing people that her HUSBAND was lying when he said Cheney sent him to Africa.
It seems to me to be an effort to get the TRUTH out, not as retribution.
Wilson lied, got caught, and then tried to make it not look like a lie by pointing his finger at the Administration.
The reason why you want us to “forget about the 5 year period” is because you want it to be a crime, and forgetting about it makes it appear that way.
Was it ill advised? Certainly. Was it irresponsible? Perhaps. Was it excusable? Depends on why it was done. From what I get out of it, nobody knew she HAD BEEN covert, only that she was an employee. That being the case, I am prone to excuse it on the grounds that the statements were made in order to correct a lie put out by Wilson.
As to politicians lying, I am not that cynical. I beleive most of them tell the truth, and that it’s the folks who disagree with them who endeavor to make it into a lie. When they do actually LIE, an eager press and/or Loyal Opposition makes it very clear that such has happened. Othereise, it’s just posturing.
It’s also a convenient way for folks to give themselves cover when BS is called on them.
re: Patrick for Senate
If Dannie Boy somehow survives the GOP primary and wins a seat in Austin, his effectiveness will be slightly less than Ron Paul’s in the U.S. House. Insulting your prospective co-workers for years doesn’t endear them to you. Pariahs have a tough time getting a consensus.
sarge,
Do you acknowledge that the Niger documents were forgeries, and that Wilson was correct about that?
65. During the course of his investigation, Mr. Fitzgerald learned that Mr. Libby lied to FBI agents and lied to a federal grand jury. As these are serious crimes in and of themselves, Mr. Fitzgerald indicted Mr. Libby on 5 courts pertaining to his failure to tell the truth while under oath.
I agree that these (lying under oath) are very serious crimes, and if proven true should be met with punishment. Big difference between lying under oath and the everyday political posturing of all politicians. It strikes me as funny how everyone seems to have already rendered a guilty/non-guilty verdict, though, when all we have so far is one indictment (after a long and now-extended investigation).
67. True, but think of all the fun we’ll have hearing Dan’s tell-all from the floor in Austin.
#61 #64
I got my bumper stickers in the mail yesterday, they were on my truck by bedtime!! Go Dan Go!!
#65) Songbird: That would be five “counts” not five “courts”. Poor typing on my part.
While I do not live in the district from which Mr. Patrick seeks office, I do applaud him for making the practice of raising our taxes through appraisals evident to all who will listen. Good job and I wish him well. I don’t agree with most of his positions on other issues, but he does have an interesting show and has done us all a favor by focusing on the property tax issue and his recent diatribes against illegal immigration. Never underestimate a man with a mission and access to the airwaves.
#68
Debate tactics won’t work with me, Headshaker, especially when you don’t seem to be able to acknowledge that Wilson lied about who sent him to Africa.
If, then, the Niger documents were forgeries, who is to say that it wasn’t HE who forged them as part of an obvious effort to discredit the Administration, much in the same way he did when he lied about who sent him to Niger in the first place.
Once you admit that all of this was started by one of YOUR GUYS telling a lie, all the rest of you argument falls apart.
No Conspiracy
No Violation of the Identities Act
Get used to it.
Debate tactics!? He ask you for your opinion. What debate course did you take?
#75
The debate tactic he used was to try and get me to admit that something on “my side” of the debate was a lie, in order to discredit anything I may have said, or will say in the future.
It’s old and tired, just like the liberal orthodoxy.
Here’s the truth:
Wilson wrote in his memoir that his wife, Valerie Wilson, aka Valerie Plame, “had nothing to do with” sending him to Niger. Yet the Senate Intelligence Committee found that Plame suggested her husband for the trip.
In June 2003, Wilson claimed he knew that documents claiming that Saddam Hussein had sought uranium in Niger were false because “the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.” But the Senate Intelligence Committee discovered that Wilson had never seen the documents. He later admitted this.
Wilson also claimed that his trip to Niger proved that Iraq never sought nuclear material from that country. But the Senate Intelligence Committee found that the CIA had concluded that Wilson’s trip did not disprove the charge.
Too bad Joe Wilson wasn’t under oath when he told all those lies.
Its a Start!
re: Patrick for Senate
If Dannie Boy somehow survives the GOP primary and wins a seat in Austin, his effectiveness will be slightly less than Ron Paul’s in the U.S. House. Insulting your prospective co-workers for years doesn’t endear them to you. Pariahs have a tough time getting a consensus.
“When computed at retail prices, marijuana is the nation’s most valuable cash crop.”
That is why we need to legalize it, tax it and increase revenues for the govt. and, therefore, decrease taxes for the rest of us.
This man is running for Houston at Large #1. Check him out. He is for ending illegal immigration and for putting an end to Houston being a sanctuary city. I met him at a MM Rally.
http://www.RoyMorales.com
Post # 48 - 74
“Ms. Plame had not been outside the US for six years she had contacts and agents that are or were. Those have been comprimised. Her work as a weapons expert has been comprimised.”
This is the one contention I would like answered. When you blow the cover of one agent it could affect others in the field. However if the CIA offically declassified her then her cover wasn’t blown, if they did not then regardless of 5 years or not being in the US she still had that security classification “covert” until she was declassified officially.
Whether Joe Wilson lied about yellow cake and everyones favorite hole scrounger saddam. I believe Joe’s truth or lies could have been proven in other ways without involving his wife.
The problem is people do exploratory work all the time, maybe at one point Saddam wanted a nuke or uranium, maybe at one point he had WMD.
Again why haven’t we been able to find the scientists who supposedly worked on these weapons and interragate them or the weapons themselves. I think a few bombs over Baghdad and the few destroyed palaces would have convinced Saddam to let Hans Blix continue his work rather then this full scale invasion (still hoping for smoking gun I am)
But that would have been if Bush didn’t want the war or had any faith in Blix and the IAEA in the first place.
sarge, are you serious? We already know that Wilson didn’t forge the documents because we know who did. And if he had, don’t you think that the administration would be all over it like white on rice?
They are dying for this to just go away and it won’t. Why? Because they are caught, plain and simple. And the fat lady hasn’t sung yet, remember that.
I don’t need to use any debate tactics. Facts are facts and truth is truth.
81 headshaker,
Facts are facts and truth is truth.
That’s the only non-spin I’ve heard from you. The truth you are seeking is in post 76.
David, post 76 may be true, but that’s just a smokescreen and you know it. There are bigger truths about to be revealed.
Headshaker;
“We already know that Wilson didn’t forge the documents because we know who did.”
No, “we” don’t. Why don’t you tell us, back it up with verifiable sources, and clue us in?
Or is this juast another insinuation designed to bolster someone’s paranoid conspiracy theories?
84 Sarge, sorry but when you suggest Wilson forged the documents you lose all credibility. Using your logic I could say Tom Delay forged them. Then I can challenge you to prove he did not.
Headshaker no sense in trying with Sarge when he won’t debate honestly.
OK;
Over an hour now and no verifiable sources, or even an accusation as to who “forged” the documents, or even that they were forged at all.
The other thing that particualar debate trick is supposed to establish is IF the opponent knows ANYTHING about the statment made. If the reply makes it appear so, you then can feel safe in making any kind of statement, or accusation, without fear of challenge.
This is why I said that “Wilson may have forged them himself.” I knew once I did that, the “we know who did it” unsubstantiated accusation would come out.
Apparently, we are relying on Joe Wilson’s statement that the documents were faked, which we also know is a lie.
My prediction for tomorrow:
Somebody will post some news article that forecasts dire things in the future for Republicans and go “neener, neener, neerner”
Somebody else will point to a disagreement between REpublicans and go
“nanny, nanny, boo boo”
Soebody will accuse Republicans of being eeeevilllll.
No where will any of these folks try and convince us to come over to their side with logic and a presentation of THEIR ideas, because that dosen’t work for them.
All they have is accusation and innuendo.
Same as it ever was.
This whole thing reminds me of the “October Surprise” non-scandal they tried to gen up. When it was revealed that Bush 41 was Chicago just 4 hours after their “witness, Gary Sick, (no irony intended), claimed to have seen him in Paris talking to Iranians. They tried to get out of THAT one by claiming he got in an SR-71 to return to the states. Honestly, I heard it on that station way down on the left end of the FM dial.
sad, sad, sad
Feagan;
I didn’t “suggest” that Wilson forged the documents.
I stated:
“If, then, the Niger documents were forgeries, who is to say that it wasn’t HE who forged them as part of an obvious effort to discredit the Administration, much in the same way he did when he lied about who sent him to Niger in the first place.”
The statement was made to demonstrate that we really can’t belive much of anything Wilson tells us, and that pretty much all of it is politicaly motivated. I may be guilty of hyperbole, that’s all.
Trying to discredit me this way..attacking me personally by saying I do not have credibility, when all of your “facts” are based on the testimony of a liar…does not prove your point, nor does it bring anything new to the table.
But personal attacks are not new to your side. It’s the old LBJ political strategy:
“Accuse your opponent of fornicating with pigs, then make him deny it.”
#78
Merits of the argument for legalizing marijuana aside (I am not taking a position here), to you really think that the government would decrease taxes elsewhere if they got a new revenue stream from a ‘pot tax’? I doubt that very seriously…
Good point jimb. Taxes have a way of staying put. The junkies (our elected officials) get used to the fix and look for ways to increase the “euphoria” (money).
Honestly, why is so much time spent on debating Joe Wilson? He’s a low level government bureaucrat whose one claim to fame is that he wrote an op/ed piece criticizing the inclusion of the infamous “sixteen words” that Bush used in his State of the Union address in 2003. What does that have anything to do with the position we now find ourselves in regarding Iraq? Why Bush sought to cite British intelligence in a speech before the American people is beyond me to begin with. The fact that it was included shows me how weak the argument was in selling the war to a public still reeling (with fear) from 9/11. While technically not a lie, it was definitely disingenous and meant to play on our collective fears.
The time to debate the merits of the invasion of Iraq has passed. Time will be the only judge of that. What we DO need to focus on is what do we now do with Iraq and how we repair the damage that this invasion has resulted in. I’m old enough to remember a time when America was looked upon with respect and admiration by the rest of the world. We were the shining light of freedom and openness, especially when compared to the USSR. Those days are long gone. The rest of the world, rightly or wronly, seems to have arrived at the same conclusion that the Iranians arrived at in 1979: We are the “Great Satan”. President Bush is about to make a trip to South and Central America where he will be met with protests and rampant anti-Americanism. Ms. Hughes met with the same in her recent “goodwill” tour of the Muslim world. While some may say “who cares what THEY think”, the post 9/11 world dictates that we MUST care. No world power, however great, can go it alone and be the object of scorn and hatred by the remainder. History is full of too many examples to cite.
We need to reflect upon the last 4 years and ask ourselves what kind of country do we want to be? Are we a nation that launches preemptive war out of fear, a nation that imprisons people without charge or even acknowledgemant, and a nation that seeks to impose our ideals (no matter how lofty) on others that oftentimes do not want them? Or can we possibly get back to the “shining light” that we once were? Only we, not our elected officials can answer that question. For they (our government) are nothing more than the sum of us. You get the government that you deserve.
Let’s hope that we seek the latter course rather than the one we currently find ourselves wandering on.
Heads, the Libs win; tails, the Reps lose.
“Recall the dozens of times the Washington Post and The New York Times carried his lies on the front page, above the fold. The conclusive story discrediting Wilson was buried 6 feet deep, back by the obituaries.
To the media, it doesn’t matter that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence says Wilson lied about what he did and with whom he met while investigating Iraqi attempts to purchase “yellowcake” uranium.
To the media, it doesn’t matter that the CIA says what Wilson did actually find supported that Iraq was attempting to buy the uranium — a direct contradiction to Wilson’s public claims.
To the media, it doesn’t matter that he claimed the vice president assigned him to the uranium investigation when we all know now it was his wife.
Some absurdly claim that Plame had nothing to do with her husband’s political activities against President Bush. But let it be clear. Plame could not have done what Wilson did and gotten away with it. Wilson could not have done what he did without Plame giving him a way to do it.”
“We were the shining light of freedom and openness, especially when compared to the USSR. Those days are long gone.”
I’m probably older than you are. I rmember that time too.
Then Democrat controlled Congresses and LBJ came along and decided that we weren’t going to save the world fronm tyranny and evil dictators. Jimmy Carter decided that we wouldn’t antagonize the “new government” in Iran and let hostages stay there for over a year, giving Mus.lims the impression we were weak and starting this whole mess in the first place.
Now we have folks like you who say we are evil and wrong for freeing a people under the yoke of a vicious and truly evil dictator who killed FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE.
For THAT alone we should have gone in, and for tha alone we should stay until the job is done.
Yes, there WAS a time that we resued people being killed and tortured by their own governments, but not now, because of the voices of people like you
While you guys worried about “how it would look” if we intervened, a hundred thousand Tutsis died in a geocide in Africa.
You guys only care about White American lives, and White American Freedom.
If the people under the thumb of the dictator or under the sword of genocide are black or brown, you just plain don’t care. You worry more about “how it looks” and “what everybody else thinks” while HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIE.
I think the real thing to be ashamed of here is that we HAD to talk you guys into going in there and getting rid of that evil lump of feces.
You guys just wouldn’t have gone if all it meant was saving Iraqis from death and dictatorship, you had to be convinced that it was the right thing to do.
And we talk about Joe Wilson because he is a liar. His lies started this process. We do it to illustrate tha, just like with Clinton, YOU are willing to tolerate SOME lies, as long as it hurts somebody you don’t like.
Sarge, please list Wilson’s lies. Then list the source for your information.
You have claimed a number of times today (yesterday) Wilson said Cheney sent him. Wrong, Wilson never said that.
You can talk about Wilson all you want. If it makes you feel better to distract from the corruption in the Admin ok. but it won;t work with me.
Libby lied, Rove lied. We know that. Now we know that even the Italians begged GWB not to go to war.
Sarge all you know is distract, and avoid.
BTW:
Still looking for that “evidence” that “we” know who “forged” the Niger documents.
I guess we should start the Thursday thread with that. Can somebody come up with a countdown clock for that one? We can put it up with the one that shows how long it’s been since the Komical said it would reveiw customers questions and complaints.
Sarge, who said they knew who forged the docs ? can you show me that ?
Second can you show me where Wilson siad Cheney sent him ?
Lets start with those two fabrications.
Sarge:
With all due respect you either missed my point entirely or you refuse to see what is before your very eyes. From your moniker, I gather you might have been, at one time, a military man. As one to (possibly) another, you know that our failure of the past decade (since the end of the Cold War) lies at the feet of both Democrats and Republicans. It’s an American failure -as much as it pains me to say that. It’s certainly not partisan. I never said we were “evil and wrong”, nor would I ever state such, I was referring to the way that we seem to be perceived by the rest of the world. When we as Americans rise to the ideals that our beloved nation was founded on, there is no better country that has ever existed. That is exactly why our present course hurts me so. We are repeating the horrors of the McCarthy Era, only now our focus is on Islam instead of communism. The way in which we have so easily surrendered rights to our government sickens me, all done in the name of national security. We have used a very broad brush, just as we did in the 1950’s, to paint all opposition to our present actions as “anti-American” and those that express them, either here or abroad, as less than human and therefore letting us off the hook -morally- when we cast aside the ideals that we should hold so dearly and which made America the “shining light”.
History will harshly judge our present course, just as we now look upon Mr. McCarthy as a demagogue and the essence of what is decidely “un-American”. The same will one day be thought of us for allowing America ideals to be highjacked by our current demagogues (of both parties).
Your attempt to make this a partisan issue tells me that you truly have no concept of what makes us so great as a nation and contributes greatly to our present predicament.
“We have found the enemy and he is us” or something to that effect.
Willie, My thoughts exactly.
OK. So let me get this straight. From the Left, we are “still looking for that “evidence” that “we” know who “forged” the Niger documents.:
From the Right, we are looking for ‘who said they knew who forged the docs’, and ‘where Wilson said Cheney sent him’.
Now I’m shaking my head.
It seems to be that this has become a political tool used by both sides to hurt the other, and I am not sure if ANYBODY cares about what actually may or may not have happened about Niger, or Yellowcake Uranium, or Plame/Wilson/Rove/Libby/Etc. except about how it can help ‘our guys’ or hurt ‘their guys’.
The whole thing is a stupid political joke. Why should I even care about any of this?
JimB, I asked the question of Sarge because I don’t recall anyone “knowing” who forged the documents. I beleive Sarge made that up. Second we do need to know more about this whole thing. As you know I believe we were lied to. My believe. Either way we need to know what drove us to war. We need to know why we have lost almost 2100 soldiers. These questions need to be answered. The Niger Docs, and others will help lead us toward the “truth”. I don’t really care if its liberal or conservative.
So I really don’t think it a “political joke”. I think it is a matter of grave consequence.
jimb:
and it’s such a moot point. What are we to do if either side could prove the merit of their argument? It’s gone WAY far beyond that. We need to concentrate on the task at hand, which to me is stabilizing Iraq long enough to get the hell out and do some serious repair work on our nation’s tattered image abroad. The constant carping concerning Wilson and/or Cheney is just so much wasted breath.
We need to move on.
#100 Willie, I disagree. We need to know how we ended up there. We need to know who led us there, we need to know the answers to these questions.
Can someone point me to this evidence?
“Now we have folks like you who say we are evil and wrong for freeing a people under the yoke of a vicious and truly evil dictator who killed FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE.”
Did Saddam kill this many? I know the Arabs in Sundan and Chad did over the course of the last few years…
where was America there?
You know what though? I don’t really care… nor do I give a crap about Wilson… what I do care about and what we should all care about is what plan does Bush have as an exit strategy for Iraq?
Can someone to the far right, right or left tell me his plan, does he have one? and dont compare our occupation to Germany or Japan post WWII because neither group was blowing us up on the road sides, and those occupations where of a different nature. I see Iraq becoming a Chechnya rather quickly.
Feagan, I’m the one who told sarge that “we” know who forged the documents. Of course we do! Go read Seymour Hersh’s article and you’ll learn all you need to know. It’s a complete joke.
I have to work for a living today so I’ll post the links when I get some free time.
#99, et al
Here it is:
“headshaker Says:
November 2nd, 2005 at 5:10 pm
sarge, are you serious? We already know that Wilson didn’t forge the documents because we know who did. And if he had, don’t you think that the administration would be all over it like white on rice?”
Now, as usual, a spurious accusation has been made as if it is fact.
I am no longer going to allow you guys to get away with crap like that.
Now that you guys are being called on all this, you want to change the subject. Something Headshaker accused us of :
headshaker Says:
November 2nd, 2005 at 12:51 pm
Feagan, they cannot defend the indefensible. Some try, but they only make themselves look more foolish. The smart ones (paradoxically speaking) just change the subject or attack the evil liberals.
Like I said, it was the hipocrasy that caused you guys and me to split the sheets a long time ago.
Sarge, Headshaker says he told you he knew who forged the docs. Ok.
Now please please post the link to Wilsons comments regarding cheney. He never said Cheney sent him. Show me I am wrong
sarge, let me make it clear to you: I’m not a liberal!
And don’t preach hypocrisy to me. That’s what I’m fighting against also, so maybe we have even more in common.
Geez, get over yourself. Go watch the Military Channel or something and vent at the screen.
Note to Matt: I don’t consider his post a personal attack so please don’t reprimand him like I know you were going to.
BTW Sarge, I suspect Headshaker will provide you with a link to his information. Something you have not yet done. When he does will you read it ? I doubt it, well unless of course it is to Rush or Fox.
Feagan
RE# 101
How many more investigations do you and the Democrats need? This investigate the war, “Bush Lied” stuff has been going on since 2002. I submit this little memo from Jay Rockefeller is proof that what you see going on today was in the works shortly after President Bush was reelected.
Here is a link to the Congressional Record search. Go take a look what the Democrats had to say about Saddam and WMDs as far back as 1995 (Just a reminder that is pre GWB. Their words unfiltered, no media. Funny how they were so consistent in what they had to say right up until the elections of 2002. Who is lying now?
Headshaker, I would love to see the link. Hearsh has been way out in front of this thing. His information has been proven correct.
I would suggest reading Atlantics peice of a year or two ago as well.
Squawk, I read the memo. Only first read. I will read it again. This does not answer the questions. Why are we there, who led us there. Also I agree with others here. How do we get outta there ?
Sarge will blame Clinton I am sure because he is obssesed with the man. This does not detract from the need for real answers.
I bet you would like real answers too.