Them’s big bucks in them thar coffers sonny boy.

The FBI said it’s not investigating, Lakewood says the “cockpit rushing” didn’t happen, and Continental says it’s all over and done with. If this happened like the witness said an investigation would be ongoing. Something’s fishy about that “eyewitness” account.

The FBI said it’s not investigating

Whatever that means. From KTRK:

“The account of the event which has come to our attention is inaccurate and overblown. The misunderstanding was minor and was resolved when Victoria voluntarily removed herself from the situation,” read the statement.

The FBI says it was not voluntary. Though agents are not investigating, they will review the incident as the Osteens enjoy their Colorado vacation.

Ah, no investigation, just review. I’m glad they cleared that up.

The involuntary nature of the deboarding is certainly odd, but I see no reason to give great deference to the Joel Osteen press shop’s characterization of the matter. If there’s one press shop in town that’s more effective than Bill White’s, it’s that one.

I left my comments on the open comment thread.

I bet we don’t hear much more on this. Continental does not want a public battle with the Osteen’s and the Osteens don’t want to tarnish their image.

Interesting none the less.

Matt, re your questions. Yeah I would like them answered as well. I made mention of the fact I have read Joel Osteen’s book, and I watch him on TV. I like the guy. I am very skeptical of Mega churches and “rock star” preachers, so as I said I would be saddened to see that my “respect” was misplaced.

The Osteens are due no deferential treatment. But they will get it.

She probably just wished the flight attendant a Merry Christmas.
/sarc

“Why the hell is a preacher flying first class to a ski trip anyway?”

Well, the mountain didn’t come to Mohammed, did it?

What, nobody shot her?

Nah, Vic, she’s rich and white. Don’t you know Bu$hHitler’s Halliburton-trained oil mercenaries only murder minorities and the poor?

So “preachers” are not allowed to fly first class? I think if drug dealers, rappers, theives and probably terrorists can fly first class, why can’t preachers?

#10 - answer = humility

#11 What is un-humble about trying to provide nice transportation for your family as you go on vacation? I really doubt Joel took a vow of asceticism

IMO, it’s a bit of a stretch to call Joel Osteen a “preacher”. A “talker” would be more accurate. I used to think he was okay, even tho he rarely mentions scriptures in his “talking”. But then I heard him apologizing for saying that you have to believe that Jesus Christ is your savior in order to get to heaven. ! Said something like “who am I to say who can go to heaven?”. Uh, hello? You hold yourself forth to be a Christian minister. You should be preaching the gospel, not just mouthing whatever gets the most bodie$ into your so-called church.

A huge church, which, did you notice, did not open their doors for the hurricane Katrina people? Years ago when the area in East Houston where their original ‘church’ building is flooded, they let people in only until they could ship them out to the public school buildings.

#12:

I really doubt Joel took a vow of asceticism

Ya think?

I fly quite a bit. I got bumped to first class . . .once.
But my pastor is running around like a one armed paper hanger this week. I don’t care about the trip. I don’t (really) care about the first class. But what bothers me is the trip, the first class and the timing all at once. Seems to be missing a bit of the humility that Angry Dan refers to.

Mega-churches scare me. I met three of the pastors from the FOTW in a rather short time frame (two weeks). Two out of three left a skeptical feeling in my mind. Not sure what to make of it. I just worry about Kool-aid.

There is a kink in their armor!

Thats all.

They are not perfect people…but it doesnt look good.

This is pathetic. A week before Christmas and they are off jet-setting to Colorado to ski.

They need to practice what they preach. They’re no better than the Crouches, the Swaggarts, the Tiltons, etc. as far as I’m concerned.

THIS IS INDEFENSIBLE.

From the Chronicle:

“Church spokesman Donald Iloff said the Osteens and their children had boarded Flight 1602 and were preparing to settle into the first-class section when Victoria Osteen noticed liquid in her seat.

She contacted a flight attendant, Iloff said, but the spill apparently was not cleaned up to Victoria Osteen’s satisfaction.”

Welcome to Lifestyles of The High and Mighty

Woe be unto anyone who puts his faith in any man.

I personally like Joel and how he presents his message but I get that “full of one’s self” fear with a few in his entourage.

Rare is the “man” who ‘farteth’ but not leave a scent.

Let’s take it easy on Swaggart. Before he got caught ministering to the wayward girls on Airline Highway he had his mother-in-law working in the count room with a security camera on her while she handled the money. A man after my own heart…with a razor.

#19
m9777, is that last line from the KJV, the Revised Standard or the Good News?

I still don’t understand what is wrong with a Pastor flying first class to go on vacation with his family. My father was a pastor for most of my life, I know that he would have loved to be able to do something like that for us on one of our family vacations, however, preaching at smaller churchs he didn’t make enough to do that. I don’t condone acting a fool on a plane, which it seems his wife did, but I don’t think you condemn a man for trying to provide a nice holiday for his family.

Moose, I take a shot at your question. I have always had a skeptical eye where the mega churches are concerned. The church I belong is far from Mega, most of the excess funds are used to further the “word” of God, and to do good where good needs to be done. I see these huge Mega churchs where it seems to me growth is for growth sake. I don’t know how Lakewood spends its money. I don’t think many people do as they are closely “held” among the Osteen family.

I think the question comes in play when the Osteens fly four people first class. The cost of that trip would be close to six grand if they paid standard fare for first class travel. I bet there were Lakewood members who tithe regularly sitting in coach, while the Osteens traveled First class.

On a whim I checked the fare with a month advance for four people first class to Vail (where flight 1602 was headed, actually Eagle co. airport, might have been aspen) Total fare for four first class is 5912.00

http://www.continental.com/fSearch.asp?SID=EE80B3412CA944B69FF02819E16CF2E3&PS=US&AF=0&FS=RT&SS=HP&ST=LF

Coach fare for four persons on same flight is total 1348.00.

I have been in and around the “business” of Christianity for several years now. The things I’ve seen would make your head spin (not shake).

How can a pastor in good conscience solicit money from people who can’t afford it, then “waste” it on this type of extravagance? And a week before Christmas? Isn’t this “Prime Time” for saving souls (along with Easter)?

It reeks. Period.

To be fair, the Osteens might have used funds from his book sales, so who knows.

Shaker, I tend to agree with you. Just hate to see it .

I wont even get into the cost of sking in Vail.

Ahh well I dont wonder why he shakes his head.

Feagy, at some point in the recent past Osteen became the church. They even launched a new website http://www.joelosteen.com. A lot of Christians (and Lakewood attendees) disapprove of how people are “worshipping” Joel instead of Jesus.

It doesn’t matter if the money came from book sales. The line is so blurred that anything Joel has comes from his role as pastor of Lakewood. There’d be no book if he hadn’t become pastor.

I’m telling you from personal experience, I’m so sick of this type of thing, and I won’t give a dime to any church that operates like this.

Yeah just as I suspected. We won’t hear much more.

From the Chronicle

“and those passengers and therefore both parties feel no further comment is necessary.”

Continental wants it to go away. Joel Osteen wants it to go away. Hence its gone.

They better hope the national media doesn’t pick up on it, especially after the Miami incident.

Another example of the power of money (err, prayer)!

Shaker your bursting my bubble man. But I knew it all along. Like I said, I just hate to see it.

I agree with you re. the book. I also agree with you re. the season.

Hell I agree with you.

Feagy, I appreciate all the agreeing! God knows I don’t get this kind of treatment at home!

Let’s have lunch someday, on Matt. LOL!

Good for me. I like food. Even if you are a “bubble burster”

34: Sounds good. I know this Chinese food place with the best soy sauce…

#21…that was from a “Bell County dirt farmers” bible I was taught from too regularly….

Beware of the Church of the Perpetual Building Fund/Large Screen Viewing necessary to see the minister. Reminds me of the two old guys at the back of the crowd in the movie Life of Brian. The one old guy says to the other, “What did he say?”
Other guy answers, “He said blessed are the CHEESEMAKERS”. lst old guy says “Cheesemakers? What’s so special about cheesemakers?”. 2nd old guy says, “You’re not supposed to take that literally. He means all dairy products”.

When you’re too far away from God, something gets lost in the translation.

Well I’ll be……. I agree with Big. Both on the church of the perpetual building fund, and the life of Brian.

My gosh, you mean if you are a minister you are not allowed to take your family to ski in Colorado or fly first class? Ministers get a salary for their service and the board of the church sets that. So how would any of you like being told how you can or cannot spend your own money? Would you like to be condemned for taking your family on a nice and vacation to see the snow and the beauty of Colorado at Christmas time?

Lakewood does have more than just one minister. So I’m sure they can all take turns taking their vacations on or right around Christmas. I do not attend at Lakewood but I do not think Joel Osteen is a greedy evil person. Pastors are just people like we all are. They are not perfect. If you are going to let what you see, or might think you see pastors do, determine your walk God in this life, then you are in big spiritual trouble. People are always so quick to try and tear down ministers. God says touch not my anointed. I would be very careful about what I say or do. Sure we need to be careful with who we take our teaching from but I will leave God to judge his called ones.

HWJF - How Would Jesus Fly? First class?

Feagy, sorry to burst your bubble. Being Catholic, it’s easy for me to see the troubles with the various denominations

Anyway, it appears Matt has agreed to funch (fund lunch) for us! Thanks pal! The Pope would be proud of your generosity.

the whole bunch of you should find something to do with your spare time.
You know absolutely nothing about this incident, yet you have accused his wasting the churches money and have attacked his wife.
Matt need to get over this (big) problem of white people with money.
“she’s rich and white”.
Move on matt. I’ve seen you use this expression, like there is somthing wrong with being white.
You did it once when hosting the 700 AM morning show.
If you are guilt problem with being white, get some help.
rj

#40 - People are always so quick to tear down ministers. Let’s see why: Paul and Jan Crouch, Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggart, the Bakers, and so on and so on and so on. Don’t you get it?

I’m not putting Joel in this category because I personally like the guy and think he’s sincere for the most part, but as the head of a worldwide ministry, I think it’s poor judgment for him to go skiing in Vail a few days before the 2nd most important “holiday” for Christians. How do you think the people he takes money from, who can’t afford really to even give it but they are “planting that seed”, feel about this? How about the people seeking Christ and salvation? What message does this send?

You wonder why I shake my head.

RJ: I was joking, just tweakin’ Vic. And I’ve never hosted the 700 AM morning show. Or any other radio show, ever.

So, to sum up:

What the hell are you talking about?

Matt, it’s the holidays, everyone is a little nutso right now.

They are lucky I wasnt on that plane. I would have grabbed Victoria,wrestled her to the ground,laid on top of her so she couldnt get away and done a very thorough and extensive patdown to see if she was packing. No need to thank me. Its my duty.

Kaaaaabooooommmmmm!!! Damn! Lighning bolt almost hit me. Whats up with that?

Gregg’s back, kids, and he brought his “A” game.

After reading the many posts, I am somewhat shocked no one bothered to check the facts. I am not a member of Lakewood Church, and am not a fan of Joel Osteen. However, it is a well known fact that he does not accept any salary from Lakewood Church, nor his is known to spend much time requesting donations. He is known to be one of the largest givers TO the church. (Also, the church finances have been scruntinized by a number of media organzations and found to be in good order.) Osteen was a millionaire prior to becoming the pastor of Lakewood due to past real estate deals. Since that time, his best selling book had enhanced his wealth and allowed his family to live a very comfortable life style. It is true that the book sells and other things would not be there if he were not the Lakewood pastor, however, he could have probably afforded a first class vacation either way.

Secondly, while I am not really trying to defend the Osteens, having flown plenty of flights on the aforementioned airline, there have been some flight attendants who are rude enough to make anyone want to rush off the plane. I would suggest that judgement be withheld until all the facts are known.

Matt, don’t let him bug you. You have nothing to feel guilty about being white. Besides, I think he has you confused with the other Italian guy, Benzion. I’m going to guess RJ really doesn’t know you too well - or your sense of humor.

RJ buddy, take a chill pill. Is Osteen your pastor? If so, I’m sure he’ll explain it all very soon. If I was a minister though, I’d feel guilty just flying business class, much less first class. Now if the money came from my investments made from my salary as a pastor (and not charged to the church, I wouldn’t feel too bad about it). He might have enough air miles to fly first class this time too. In any event, at least they’re not like Lucille Ball and Queen Sheila, who had several airlines ask them not to grace their planes.

bbb, the only reason Joel had money and could do those deals is because of Lakewood. Apparently you don’t know the whole history.

The DOTI are out on this one. Bring it on.

Wanna get rich?

Open a church or start a new religion.

#50
David Ben Zion is Italian? Now I’m really getting confused.

Like Al Gore did when he went to divinity school. First Church of the Perpetual Bong Halo.

Wil (hint). It’s a joke.

#53:
Hey squawk.

Can I be the Pope?

S.

And if Wayne Delchafino can be Jewish, why can’t Benzion be Italian?

Now you know where your divine donations are going. I think I am in the wrong business, I should start God’s business, it has no economic cycle, every day is a good day!!!!!!!!!
I can see myself living in a 9 million mansion with a king size heated pool and a tennis court with full approval of the CEO of this enterprise, GOD!!!!!!!!!!

#58
It all depends on your mother unless you convert.

The Reverend Criswell, long-time pastor of Dallas’ First Baptist died a few years ago and was short-stopped at the pearly gates by St. Peter because he could not find Criswell’s name in any of his “good books.” Nothing under S for ’salvation,’ nothing under P for ‘preacher’, nothing under B for ‘baptising’ etc. Criswell screamed, well look in all your books…my name has gotta be there! Several hours passed and St. Peter returned to a very, very frustrated Criswell. Reverend, I am so very sorry it took so long to locate your name and deeds but I did, so come on in. Relieved, Criswell entered and muttered, “where did you find me?” St. Peter replied, under “real-estate entrepreneurs.”

Well he could have bought a G5 and flown private and no-one would be the wiser? Either that or he could have chartered a private plane…same thing.

What about the POPE…he *has* taken a vow of poverty…anyone wanna live in that kind of poverty?

What about Queen Sheila…she makes an (north end of a south bound donkey) every time she travels wether its by plane train or limo.

Regards,
Beach_Bum

And if Wayne Delchafino can be Jewish, why can’t David Benzion be Italian?

Sometimes this thing is so slow updating, I don’t know if my post took. Sorry for the restate.

Actually, BeachBum, the pope doesn’t take a vow of poverty.

Oh…then I stand corrected. Since that is the case, should we make the Pope pay for his own airfare in coach class?

Beach_Bum

Sure. When he goes skiing in Vail.

I don’t think the Pope (as head of state of a sovereign nation) has to pay to fly on Vatican 1.

Sedosi
#57

You got it

How comezitis that all these tele preacher’s wives have big hair? And the make up…..geez. And and and the old guys that look like they dip their heads in black India ink.

Say what you will about Joel Osteen. I read his book and it changed me for the better.Lated a good month or two before it wore off. Now i’m back to my old sinful goin to hell self.

I even sent them some money for the poor. I now get mail from them everyday. I assume they are trying to thank me. I havent had time to open them up.

Matt, would David let you host the show sometime if you were Jewish for a day? I don’t think your priest would mind all that much.

Gregg, always send money anonymously.

Ooh, good question, Big45Iron.

Benzion, what do you think?

If the witness thinks the same of the Olsteens as most of these posts do then I’ll go with the Church’s explanation.
I don’t know where I got the impression that LST readers were also, for the most part, KSEV listeners. For a minute there I thought that I had logged onto NPR’s website.

Right #75, I’d guess the 95% of LST readers are KSEV listeners. That being said, let’s say we are likely as skeptical of big church as we are of big government. Lot’s of dollars have a way of corrupting people and making them lose sight of what is important. You’ll note on my posts that I gave Rev. Osteen the benefit of the doubt on why they were flying first class, and didn’t comment at all on what was alleged by some to have happened. But as Headshaker #44 pointed out, there have been and are enough charlatons around in very large churches to make one suspicious. It’s kind of like finding a Washington politician who is more interested in doing what is good for the nation than they are in getting reelected. The Billy Grahams and Ed Youngs of the world can be pretty rare, as are the Dan Patricks.

This has been a paid political ad for the Dan Patrick for Texas Senate District 7 Campaign, Paul Bettencourt, Treasurer.

Thought I better say that just in case.

#44 Headshaker
I’m so busy shaking my head over what you said that I’m almost too dizzy to respond. Talk about narrow-minded, lumping all Evangelists into the same category. I don’t think I have ever heard of any charges or convictions being brought on Paul and Jan Crouch, the other three yes, three out of hundreds of large ministries oh boy.

The way the media is and how much they hate Christians. Don’t you think that if all ministries, especially big ones were doing wrong, that they would have already been torn apart by the press? Again Pastors and Ministers are paid by what the churches board votes on to pay him or her. How else are they going to live? There is nothing wrong with Joel or any other Minister using his or her own money to go on a vacation or how they get there.

#49 bbb, I was unaware that Lakewood did not pay Joel a salary. Thanks for the info and you make very good points.

I for one have no problem with my Pastor going on a nice vacation. We love him and he deserves it. He is a good and very honest man as I am sure Joel is also. If anyone of you are accusing Joel and Victoria of doing wrong without proof or all of the facts. Well then if I were on trial for something I did not do, I sure would not want you to be on the jury. I don’t think you would want you on the jury either.

I used to really like Lakewood I have been
their many times under his dad John. His door
was always open as a pastor. Now you cannot
even talk to Joel as your pastor you have to
his staff because he is to busy. His dad would not not of done that and his Dodie his wife does not
have an attitude like Victoria does..
I think this is just the tip of the ice burg
and believe this is the beginning of the end.
You cannot be a christen and preach without
talking and walking the same walk.

Lakewood is a Christian church, right? Would it kill them to have a cross in there somewhere?

But hey, it’s pretty popular. The church’s website proclaims:

its international media broadcast has expanded into over 200 million households in the United States.

That’s amazing media penetration, especially when you consider that there are 105 million households in the U.S. Wow! 190% of Americans love Joel Osteen!

…the only important to count correctly is the MONEY.

…also, I rarely listen to KSEV. I can only digest just “so much” political chat. Bring back Matt Thomas!!

Thank you!

signed “Matt”

According to some witnesses quoted by the Vail Daily News, Joel was calm while his wife was going bonkers. Henpecked?

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20051220/NEWS/112200023

The thing that amazes me about the mega-churches is that I’ve seen as much leg and cleavage in the church, as I did as a youth playing in bar band.

Enough to make you scratch your cranium, is it not?

83 this is true n/c they think that is “dressing up”

“jah Says:
December 20th, 2005 at 9:17 pm

According to some witnesses quoted by the Vail Daily News, Joel was calm while his wife was going bonkers. Henpecked?”

Not henpecked jah, not christian would be more like it. Thus sayeth the scriptures, a woman is supposed to obey her husband.

I’ve not read the book but googled the Osteens and came up with a Joel quote from from his best seller: “In his book, Osteen talks about how his wife, Victoria, a
striking blonde who dresses fashionably, wanted to buy a fancy house
some years ago, before the money rolled in. He thought it wasn’t
possible. “But Victoria had more faith,” he wrote. “She convinced me we
could live in an elegant home…and several years later, it did come to
pass.”"

Wonder why Osteen is having to fly commercial? He should have his own Gulftream like the other mega-preachers.

Hey let’s all bash the preachers! Most of you guys that are commenting on the scriptures and judging the people that are trying to help people probably can’t even quote 3 scriptures. I don’t think anyone is having a problem with the successful and wealthy people in this world having a trip flying first class unless they know they are a preacher. Try reading your Bible about some of the people in the scriptures that were wealthy and were doing the will of God. Nobody is perfect, but let’s give these people a break. They are human too. As a preacher, I can say that we are held to a higher standard and we should be. But don’t get bent out of shape when a preacher tries to hold you to a high standard as well. Most people say “it’s my life, and I’ll do what I want.” Maybe you ought to find something productive to do instead of judging people that you have no right or authority to be judging.

Merry Christmas!

I used to listen to his Dad. I listened to Joel twice since then. His message is not the same as his Dad’s. Reminds me of Dr. Phil. In fact I just looked at Lakewood’s and Joel Osteen’s web sghts to see what they offered for sale. Not one book/cd/dvd/or tape about the Bible or Jesus or God. All self help stuff.

Nope not his Dad at all.

Those of you criticizing these people for flying first class or going on a vacation must be total idiots or jealous.It’s really none of anyones business.Preachers are people too.If their parishoners and congregation like and support them,it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.

For those of you that have a problem with mega churches,I have a solution to your problem.Don’t attend or watch a mega church.But do get a life.

Lastly, if you weren’t on the plane,you can’t possibly know the entire facts of the incident.Must have been no big deal if they were put on another flight.

Way to go george! Hey here’s a thought. Those of you that don’t like Joel or Megachurches better ask God to give you a heart change, because the last time I checked, there will be a whole lot of people in Heaven. I don’t think the “Us Four and No More” Club has their own Amen Corner in Gloryland. I’ve read Joel’s book and He uses the principles found in God’s Word very effectively.

Religious? No. Helpful and Practical? Yes

#78 - where did I lump ALL evangelists together? I said I don’t think Joel is in that category, and there are many others.

Also, I have a lot of first-hand knowledge having been “in the business”. A lot of it is simply disgusting.

There’s been a lot of flack given to Joel inferring that he gets megabucks from Lakewood. The guy doesn’t even get a salary from Lakewood. He quit taking any of the church’s money over a year ago, if I recall correctly.

The money that he made (to pay for the trip) HAD to have come (mostly) from the sales of his books. Yes, the books don’t quote scripture on EVERY page as many do, but they are down to earth and apply biblical principles to everyday situations.

I don’t believe that God meant Joel to reach the same audience as his dad, or other preachers for that matter. People who wouldn’t know a Bible verse from a hole in their head will listen to him for his down-to-earth almost folksy presentation. Once they realize it’s biblical, they get curious, they open their Bible, and wham…. It’s a different time, a different method for the time.

Like others, I’m concerned that his lifestyle has become a little too high class for the “common folk”. But God has a way of taking care of that, too….witness Jim Bakker.

Yeah, and when Jesus returns he’ll be arriving in a limo, wearing a $3,000 suit, lots of gold and diamonds, with a personal entourage catering to his every need. Oh, it’ll also be televised live and broadcast around the world. Yep, can’t wait, that will fulfill Biblical prophecy.

For those of you that have an issue with the money that Joel is spending, I would let you know that he is on record of saying that the first class trips and hotels are paid for out of his own pocket not the ministry. Here’s a thought for all of you commenting on his lifestyle, would you enjoy a first class ticket if you could afford it? Hmmm. Tough question, right? No way.

jmj
#89
Yes and I would ask you a question.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Timothy 4:3
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Hey Headshaker,

Why don’t you send God an urgent message letting him know that he went overboard with the whole streets made of gold thing? How about the pearly gates or mansion that he’s building for every one that believes? Don’t get bent out of shape when God blesses His kids on earth. Try operating in God’s laws of giving and you might see that he will do something cool for you. See Malachi 3:10, Luke 6:38, 3 John 2, Romans 8:32, and many more.

As a preacher myself, I can tell that you Mr. Headshaker are either a preacher yourself or a person that is bitter towards the church. What happened to you?

Merry Christmas.

Squawkbox,

I can sit here and quote scripture with you all day, but I have a question for you: Have you ever been in a service at Lakewood? I know that many people are giving their lives to God and making commitment serve Him. Maybe Mr. Osteen is doing a good work. Who are we to be judging his life and his lifestyle?

jmj
#96

Show me one post where I said a thing about his lifestyle.

As a matter of fact I have been to Lakewood. Especially when Pastor John Osteen was alive. I have watched 2 services on TV of Joel Osteen and I stand by my statement. His message is not his father’s. His father taught Jesus and him crucified foremost. I see Dr. Phil in the current services.

As for your question as whom am I to judge his life style. I could care less about how the man lives. But I would be a damn fool if I did not judge his message. It is one thing to be a fool, but quite another to be a blind fool.

jmj
One more thing we are not to judge any man’s HEART, no were does it say in the book we are not to judge a man’s actions and words.

jmj, I’ve seen a lot of things up close and personal in the last few years to turn me off to certain churches and preachers.

Look, I’m not against Joel as a person; I believe him to be a good guy. But I think he’s a little lost, as ironic as that might seem.

Hey #97 Squawkbox -

What about comment 53? Wanna get rich? No doubt about it that he is different than His dad. Totally different. I know. I have his dad’s books as well, and I have great respect for him. I don’t think he should try to be like his dad. His dad was amazing, but Joel is great in his own way as well. His message does have a compassionate and down to earth tone, but hey, people need to be able to understand and apply what they are being taught, right? I think Joel does this well. hey, Jesus spit in the dirt to perform miracles and told stories about people planting seeds. He made is understandable and spoke to people in a relevant way. But hey, let’s just agree to disagree. No big deal.

I live outside of Houston and recently drove through there. I passed by Lakewood and just from looking at the outside I could see some serious cash was spent on that place.

But the thing that stood out to me the most and what I found disturbing was seeing Joel Osteen’s name plastered in big letters with fancy lighting on the side of the building. Is this Lakewood Church or Joel Osteen’s church? As only the pastor, I was surprised to see his name so prominently placed…like there’s no way to miss it. I found it a bit unsettling and I immediately thought of Swaggart and Tammy & Jim. Eek.

As a former member of the Mormon church (LDS), I know cult-think. And this place sure smells like it. I gave 15-20% of my income (Mormons are asked for much more than just 10% and it goes straight to Salt Lake City with no accountability) for many years like a fool, so when I see these mega-churches supporting these rich pastors I just feel really sorry for the poor folks who have no money but faithfully give all they can.

How sad.

Salvation is one big party - bring on the band. Forget hell. Forget works. Go get rich (no matter how), accept Christ as your savior - afterlife is good!

#101 - you get it.

Hey #99 Headshaker -

Let go of the past. I have seen just as much or more than you have. I guarantee it. I see it from a preacher’s point of view, and I know that we all have a full time job just keeping ourselves right much less keeping everyone else right. You have been at this since 1 PM. I think you’re a little obsessed with bashing Mr. Osteen. I hope you have a change of heart, and honestly I pray that you will forgive those that have wronged you. Because if we refuse to forgive and forget like God does, we won’t be forgiven. Take that up with God, He said it, not me.

Good night and God bless.

I’m not bashing Joel. I said I like Joel. But I think he made a mistake.

I started at 1 pm but I’ve been gone for the last 6 hours. I’m not obsessed!

And no one is more forgiving than me - believe me.

God bless you also.

jmj
#100

I stand by my statement on the get rich statement also.

What is greatness in his own way? What is that? Look I could care less about arguing with you. My point is this. I have no problem with anyone making money either a preacher or someone in the congregation. I have no problem with people learning to apply the proven biblical principles either. God said his people perish because of lack of knowledge. I have no problem of teaching be the best you can be. My concern is that when the message of salvation is lost amidst all the self help stuff, then I am concerned.

It is a big deal. We are discussing peoples souls here. I question the attraction. Is it the personality giving the message, the message of prosperity or is it really Christ being preached? I return to my post above and the two passages are quite germane to the discussion. But as you said our common ground can be to agree to disagree.

#101 Gets It

headshaker
#102

That deserves a gets it too.

Headshaker…
You sure are opinionated. How about just a couple of facts for you…

1. Joel and Victoria were well-off before becoming the pastor of Lakewood. They were into residential real-estate developments which allowed them to afford to buy a house in one of the most prominent neighborhoods in Houston “ten years ago.” They have only been the pastor of Lakewood for six.

2. I am sure this has been mentioned before; Joel does not accept a salary from the church at all.

3. Joel and his entire family– wife, mother, brother, and sister– will meet anyone after any one of the church services; no matter how long that line gets they stay until the very last person who wants to speak to them has.

And for whomever said he apologized for saying that Christ is the only way to heaven, they were sadly mistaken.

Joel opened service and posted an official letter of apology Lakewood website after re-reading his Larry King Live transcript on the that said he does believe that salvation through Christ is the only way to heaven. Larry King is known for making people crack under pressure– and unfortunately he may have gotten the best of Joel that day. But nothing is more humble than a man who can admit his mistakes and keep going.

AND to whomever mentioned that Lakewood did not open their doors to Katrina victims were also mistaken… Least you forget at the time Lakewood had two facilities one of which was opened for hurricane victims, and every hurricane victim that came through our doors were offered $100 gift cards to Wal-Mart and other stores… Just because a man/church does not boast about his donations and charitable deeds does not mean that they do not exist.

Along with other “mega-churches” like Second Baptist we raised over $5 million in less than a couple of weeks to help cover feeding the victims at the Astrodome for a month.

Please check your facts before shaking your head at anyone…. and always remember that NO ONE is perfect but Him [Jesus] and we will all make mistakes.

jmj
I’ll take you at your word that you are a pastor. Post where your church is, I’ll come to your service and I would be glad to sit with you one on one and talk. In fact I would love to sit with you and your church elders and talk.

#109 - first of all, God made me this way - so deal with it!

1. Joel may have made money in real estate, but would he have been so successful if not for Lakewood? Please. He’s been pastor 6 years, but he was a big part of that church (mostly behind the scenes) his whole life.

2. He doesn’t accept a salary - how noble of him. If you’re implying that he doesn’t financially benefit from his position at Lakewood, you’re living in another world.

3. OK - who said he didn’t? I’ve met him, Victoria, Dodi, et al after service. I said I believe him to be a good man.

The bottom line is this: Joel should not be vacationing in Vail Christmas week. Period, end of story. You want to be his apologist, go right ahead. I’m entitled to my opinion.

Hey Squawkbox

Tell me this, What is Christ being preached? Are you saying that unless a preacher is bashing people over the head and telling them how wrong they are that they are not being effective? The Bible says that it is the goodness of God that brings people to repentance. Religion says to put people down, but God wants to lift people up.

Another thing, I know about souls. I have personally seen over 100 decisions made for Christ in the last 4.5 months in my own ministry.

As for the greatness comment, God has put greatness on the inside of everyone that believes. That greatness is also Jesus. Joel is great, special, etc. in his own way. Let’s not split hairs here.

jmj, congratulations on your ministry. I too would welcome the chance to visit with you and squawk to discuss the things that have turned me off from many that call themselves Christian (pastors included).

I’m not saying that fire and brimstone is the answer, but neither is wealth and material possessions.

You guys have a great night. It’s been interesting. I pray you all have a great Christmas and experience the goodness of God all the days of your lives.

jmj

jmj
#112
Nice try but no cigar. Your fishing and I am not biting jmj. No where have I said or insinuated that people should be put down to be brought to Christ. I quoted Paul. So let us not put words in my mouth.

If you wish to follow Joel Osteen that is your business. I have posed legitamate questions and concerns about his message and you have yet to address those concerns. I have told you precisely where my concerns lie and why.

jmj
#114
Back at ya.

You are definately entitled… but out of curiosity why shouldn’t he vacation Christmas week? Don’t most people take a vacation during Christmas week. I can garauntee you that he will still be at church this Saturday … AND Sunday Christmas day.

I’m not saying that being the pastor of Lakewood has not made him wealthier, but for him to already have been living in a $2 million house four years before assuming the role as pastor says something about his finacial state pre-Lakewood leadership.

The fact that instead of buying himself a newer bigger more expensive house after becoming pastor, the fact that he still drives a nine-year old car, and that he still plays basketball at the YMCA and not some ritzy country club, I think, says a great deal about his character.

There are ministers who go out and buy themselves yachts and multiple houses when they are financially able…. he takes his family to Vail for maybe three days and turns a sports arena into a place of worship with TONS of free services to anyone not just members… go figure.

I never compared Joel to some of the sleazy evangelists out there.

You don’t get it. Go to http://www.joelosteen.com, maybe something there will enlighten you.

God Bless!

I’m just curious as to why “he shouldn’t be vacationing Christmas week.”

#119 - are you serious? Your validating my point by asking that question.

And I’m an active member… I am pretty enlightened already.

Don’t most people take a vacation during Christmas week. I can garauntee you that he will still be at church this Saturday … AND Sunday Christmas day.

C’est tout pour moi!

We’ll disagree, but I respect your point. It’s easy [and I am actually there with most ministers] to be skeptical. I personally was not a fan of the “Joel Osteen Ministries” sign on the building, but there is a reason for everything, and at the end of the day I feel like he does more good, and to me that’s all that matters.

Bonsoire!!

and Merry Christmas

[See my first message, #101, about being a former Mormon, etc.]

Some more thoughts…

Besides Joel’s name being plastered prominently on the side of Lakewood, his name is seen all over Lakewood’s website as well. Again, is this Lakewood Church or The Joel Osteen Church?

In the bookstore on his website there’s plenty of Joel’s self-help books available but NO Bible, NO Bible Study Guides, NO books about Biblical principles or people…nothing of the sort. While it may be true Osteen doesn’t receive a salary (I don’t know) it is definitely true that he uses the church to promote himself and his books. It’s not about Jesus, it’s about Joel Osteen.

Click on the Apparel section and you’ll get the message: “Joel Osteen Ministries logo hats, shirts, and other Apparel Coming Soon!” LOGO HATS? SHIRTS? WHAT THE…?! That’s bizarre. I can see a Lakewood logo, but Joel Osteen? If that doesn’t smack of Swaggart and Tammy & Jimmy, I don’t know what does.

Click on the Events section and you’ll see you can go see Joel in other cities for $10 a pop. Yep, that’s right…it’s going to cost you $10 to see this guy. And he preaches the same message as he does on Sunday but charges you for it. How nice for the poor folk who get by on welfare. Sorry poor people, no Joel Osteen for you, you’re too poor. (In a round-about way he even admits as much in the Larry King interview.)

Speaking of the Larry King interview, the one thing that stands out there is Joel actually seems like a decent guy. His wife seems to be a piece of work, but Joel seems genuinely nice. So maybe he’s just getting some seriously bad advice or else he truly is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Or maybe he’s under immense pressure to keep his wife in Neiman Marcus fashions. I don’t know.

Did anyone catch what Victoria Osteen said in the Larry King interview (which in light of recent events sounds rather funny now):

“You see, if you have someone in your life today, and you don’t like the way they’re treating you, I want to encourage you to take a look at how you’re treating them. If you will begin to treat them differently, then you will get a different response. In other words, say your spouse isn’t giving you enough love. They’re ignoring you. They’re not being kind and considerate to you.
Well, see, human nature is to give them a taste of their own medicine, to treat them the same way. But when we do that, we’re just going to continue to reap what we’re sowing.”

I guess Victoria reaped what she sowed on that plane. My friend’s a flight attendent, and she said it had to pretty serious to be asked to leave the plane after the door was closed…no matter what kind of spin Continental and Lakewood want to put on it.

In his book, Osteen talks about how Victoria wanted to buy a fancy house some years ago, before the money rolled in, but he didn’t think it was possible. “But Victoria had more faith,” he wrote. “She convinced me we could live in an elegant home…and several years later, it did come to pass.”

I’m sorry, but I have a problem with that. All I see in those 2 people’s eyes are dollar signs.

Coming from my background as a Mormon, I now have a HUGE problem with people mixing faith in Christ (or any “god”) and trying to get rich out of it. But ya know, sometimes karma has a way of coming back around and kicking you in the arse.

87: Squawk nails it. The guy is like Dr. Phil. And that’s fine. Dr. Phil is great. Let’s just not treat him like he’s some great theologian.

I’m sure being interviewed by Larry King is tough, but even that guy couldn’t get a mathematician to say that 2+2=5. If Larry King is enough to make Osteen’s theology that wobbly, I submit that his beliefs and ideas aren’t all that well thought out.

kensi, you get it.

Maybe she had to go to the pot and got the doors mixed up.. She’s human after all. Or is she?

Larry King: “Because we’ve had ministers on who said, your record don’t count. You either believe in Christ or you don’t. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don’t no matter what you’ve done in your life, you ain’t.”
Joel Osteen: “Yeah, I don’t know. There’s probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you’re a believer in God, you’re going to have some good works. I think it’s a cop-out to say I’m a Christian but I don’t ever do anything…”
Larry King: “What if you’re Jewish or Muslim, you don’t accept Christ at all?”
Joel Osteen: “You know, I’m very careful about saying who would and wouldn’t go to heaven. I don’t know…”
Larry King: “If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They’re wrong, aren’t they?”
Joel Osteen: “Well, I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I believe here’s what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person’s heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don’t know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don’t know. I’ve seen their sincerity. So I don’t know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Joel Osteen has just denied his calling as a pastor and a minister of Christ. A man that cannot bring himself to say that Jesus is the only way to heaven should resign from the ministry (John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5; Acts 4:12).

Larry King: “But don’t you think if people don’t believe as you believe, they’re somehow condemned?”
Joel Osteen: “You know, I think that happens in our society. But I try not to do that. I tell people all the time, preached a couple Sundays about it. I’m for everybody. You may not agree with me, but to me it’s not my job to try to straighten everybody out. The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope, that’s God’s for you. You can live a good life no matter what’s happened to you. And so I don’t know. I know there is condemnation but I don’t feel that’s my place.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Jesus taught: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil,” John 3:18-19.

Larry King: “Is — have you always believed?”
Joel Osteen: “I have always believed. I grew up, you know, my parents were a good Christian people. They showed us love in the home. My parents were the same in the pulpit as they were at home. I think that’s where a lot of preachers’ kids get off base sometimes. Because they don’t see the same things at both places. But I’ve always believed. I saw it through my parents. And I just grew up believing.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Joel says, “I’ve always believed.” That’s impossible! There has to have been a time in your life when you made a decision to repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your savior. If we take Joel Osteen’s words to millions of viewers of the Larry King show at face value it is impossible for him to even be a Christian!

Larry King: “You don’t call them sinners?”
Joel Oteen: “I don’t.”
Larry King: “Is that a word you don’t use?”
Joel Osteen: “I don’t use it. I never thought about it. But I probably don’t. But most people already know what they’re doing wrong. When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change. There can be a difference in your life. So I don’t go down the road of condemning.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Wow! If you’re a Christian–these unbiblical statements from the pastor of America’s largest church should cause us all to fall to our knees in prayer for the Church of Christ and the shepherds that are supposed to protect and warn the sheep about men that preach a different gospel.

“At the biggest church in the country, Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, Pastor Joel Osteen preaches to some 25,000 people each week — and sin is not on the menu. Osteen said his goal is to “give people a boost for the week.”
“I think for years there’s been a lot of hellfire and damnation. You go to church to figure out what you’re doing wrong and you leave feeling bad like you’re not going to make it,” Osteen said. “We believe in focusing on the goodness of God.”
…Osteen defends Lakewood’s ways, saying the lively and inclusive atmosphere is attracting a whole new generation of parishioners.”
…”It’s not a churchy feel,” Osteen, 40, said. “We don’t have crosses up there. We believe in all that, but I like to take the barriers down that have kept people from coming. A lot of people who come now are people that haven’t been to church in 20 to 30 years.”
(”Religion Gets Supersized at Megachurches,” Tuesday, February 03, 2004. By Amy C. Sims. Fox News)

Larry King: “How about issues that the church has feelings about? Abortion? Same-sex marriages?”
Joel Osteen: “Yeah. You know what, Larry? I don’t go there. I just …”
Larry King: “You have thoughts, though.”
Joel Osteen: “I have thoughts. I just, you know, I don’t think that a same-sex marriage is the way God intended it to be. I don’t think abortion is the best. I think there are other, you know, a better way to live your life. But I’m not going to condemn those people. I tell them all the time our church is open for everybody.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)

As a person who has only recently accepted religion, this whole thing troubles me. God doesn’t trouble me, people who are arrogant trouble me. Which leads me to my question for any of you who aren’t disenchanted with organized religion: what is your criteria for accepting someone as a valid leader in the quest for salvation?

Since only God can know the will of God, it sometimes seems to me that such an intensely personal quest (for salvation) is at odds with adhering to any organized religion. I don’t mean this as a condemnation of organized religion, it just seems self-contradictory to follow another human being in the personal quest for salvation. Or is it not really a personal quest? I don’t know the answers, I only know my questions.

Before I get bashed on this, let me clarify my position. I am not anti-organized religion. I realized my last post could be seen that way.

At the church my family attends, I’ve heard our preacher say “don’t believe me, believe this”, while holding up the Bible. All in all, our preacher seems to be a very self-deprecating man. That is what I see missing in Joel Osteen. I haven’t seen Osteen in person, but I have seen him on TV on several occasions.

The mega-churches and glitzy approach to religion just doesn’t work for me. If it works for you and leads you to God, then great. If it doesn’t (as is the case with me) then I strongly recommend a smaller, more humble church. I do believe God likes us to be humble.

Wow, I missed all the fun. This thread Sure brought some new people to the table here at LST.

Very interesting reading. I note that JMJ did not accept Squawks invitation to sit and talk. Very curious. Unless of course arrangements were made elsewhere.

Was it Squawk or Shaker that said he did not judge a mans heart, but could judge his actions ? I like that one.

No one mentioned the fact that they (the Osteens) kept 200 +/- people in a plane for two hours because of their actions. Now that would make me LIVID.

There has been discussion as to whether or not Joel makes money from the Church. I would agree with Shaker, he makes money because of the church. Also I wonder does he get paid for those personal appearances ? Bet he does.

Bramanti made a good point also. If Larry King can “trip” Joel up, then Joel has some issues far greater than we can solve here.

As to being jealous. Hardly. I have been to Vail, its nice, but not worth the money. There are much better values out there, lots of mountains with snow. As to first class, when I get bumbed because of my “elite” status, or have the miles,yeah it good. But a big waste of 3000.00 bucks (in this case).

Lastly, I like Joel, I listen to him and have read his book. I hate to see this, and am troubled when anyone gets too big for their britches.

#131 Who are you to say if Joel is humble or not? What is the meaning of humble to you?

as for #132 who made a statement concerning the fact that I did not accept the invitation to talk with squawk. I must say that I do not feel comfortable to give out my personal info to someone I don’t know at all. I’m sure he’s a good guy, but I make no apology for that.

#133 jmj,

“Humble” is a subjective term. To me (in the religious sense), it means a person who accepts that God has the answers and they do not. A humble person fully considers the effects of their actions on others before taking them. That is my opinion and is fully worth what you paid for it.

Who are you to say if Joel is humble or not?

A person with an opinion that differs from your own.

So how about an answer to my question in #130:

What is your criteria for accepting someone as a valid leader in the quest for salvation?

jmj, with all due respect, that’s a lame excuse. Squawk is a moderator here, we have public gatherings to get to know one another, and if you are who you say you are, why would it matter? You’re a minister! Do you only minister to people you have run a background check on?

Please.

You wonder why I shake my head.

.

humble (hum’ bul), see: Mother Theresa

You might try this:

Copy and paste this whole discussion into MSword, then…

Have some fun with find and replace!

Church -> Corporation
God -> CEO
Jesus/Christ -> Our first SpokesMan
Joel -> Joe-Salesperson
minister -> Shill
salvation -> Comfortable-Retirement

Then, you might consider if it looks like organized religion is a convenient model for central financial and social manipulation.

You might also consider if your salvation/401K/comfortable-retirement could have ever reallllly existed; considering the resources going out of the corporation compared to those coming in… especially if the company has no way to demonstrate if any retirees ever collected.

.

jmj, I’ve been watching your posts with interest. I guess it really comes down to a matter of humility. Jesus could have arrived in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday in a golden chariot had he wished to. He certainly had the capability. And his followers certainly would have wanted that, because they wanted to see the Messiah as a great and glorious king arriving to save them from the Romans.

However, Jesus arrived to bring God’s message to the people riding a donkey. His message was one of humility and simplicity. No, we don’t all live that life. But those who would purport themselves to be carriers Christ’s message to the masses perhaps should live a life slightly less than extravagant. It would certainly give them a bit more credibility with the people.

I find it interesting that women typically don’t listen to the wisdom of their husbands, especially if they are pastors. Then they find themselves doing foolish things and making him look bad.

Why is that? Why does it appear like they say with their words “Yeah, everyone, listen to my husband. He’s smart and wise and all that” but with lives they say “My husband is such a twit, I’m doing my own thing.”

The problem is with living by emotion and forgetting wisdom. But she lives with a very wise person. Almost doesn’t have an excuse. ALMOST. But since she has emotions…

There’s no reason to cry over skilled milk, or water, or whatever. And I understand the first class issue. However, they could have purchased a private jet, which is more common for popular preachers. First class is much more humble than using a private jet.

Still, I can’t even afford a skiing trip, let alone use first class to get there. I think about all the members of his congregation that choose to support the church and buy ham instead of roast just to afford to do so. Or those who’s children have only one pair of shoes, rickety old cars or no vehicle at all just to afford to subdue their own conscience about paying a tithe.

But Joel is a popular person and his family might be at the very least inconvenienced by the nobodies in coach. Or worse, they could find themselves in an altercation with someone who insists upon an autographed scripture verse. Nothing worse than insistent people when you are trying to get away on a family vacation.

#137 - Big 45 - Jesus rode into town on a donkey in order to fulfill prophecy. Read your Bible and do some research. WE can’t just pick and choose what we want in order to prove our points.

Headshaker - To reply to your statement: Why don’t you give out your address and phone number and I will see if I can’t get in contact with you.

Get the dirt here…

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3538956.html

jmj - email me at info@headshaker.com and I’ll be happy to provide any details you need. See, it’s easy!

Merry Christmas.

#139 jmj,

Big45Iron’s interpretation of the Bible is less valid than yours? How do you know the extent to which Big45 has read and/or researched the Bible?

There is ample room for argument amongst Christians concerning the Bible. You state the “we” can’t just pick and choose what we want in order to prove our points, yet that is exactly what you have done. Everyone picks and chooses to make points. That is the very nature of point-making.

Mike Martin, nice post.

“Which leads me to my question for any of you who aren’t disenchanted with organized religion: what is your criteria for accepting someone as a valid leader in the quest for salvation?”

Jesus said that the man who is led by the Spirit is like the wind, you don’t know where he’s going or from whence he came. Unfortunately, I’ve met very few people who meet this description and none who were pastors. Well, I can’t say none but none that totally fit the bill. How about very, very few who were on that path.

Most pastors are not led by the Spirit, but by their seminary, their denomination, their followers. Yes, pastors are led by followers, not the other way around.

If a preacher teaches the tithe is for everyone today, I close my ears. The tithe was nothing more than a tax for Jews.

If a preacher teaches that the Bible is entirely historically accurate and literal, I close my ears. Only relatively recently, within the last millenium did that belief take shape. Paul would never have written a single word to anyone if he thought someday his words would be assumed by all of Christianity as coming directly from God. “Some say they follow Paul, some Apollo, … I’m glad I didn’t baptise any of you… we are all Baptised into Christ, not Paul…”

I don’t look for Spiritual direction from religious leaders. Scriptures are good for instruction, historical accounts, prayer, a walk with the Creator. Walking in love for God, his creation and others leads one into fellowship with the Spirit. And the Spirit reveals all things.

Hey Talents -

Nice Try, but not good enough.

What about 2 Timothy 3:16 ?

2 Timothy 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation

16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),

-OR_

Ephesians 4:11-13

11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ’s body (the church),

13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [[b]full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ’s own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.

14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of [c]unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.

Hey I din’t make it up, HE did.

#142 - I’m talking about keeping it in context. What is the writer really trying to say? We all can pick and choose the words and scriptures from the Bible at will and pretty much make any point we want to make, but sometimes it is really unscriptural.

I don’t want to sound nasty or mean-spirited, and if I have, I offer my apologies.

Joel the news…

http://www.joelosteen.com/site/PageServer?pagename=NewsList

You’ll see a list of articles about Joel’s ministry. Interesting, no reference to the airplane incident anywhere. Go to Google.com and a totally different list of links comes up.

jmj, I’m glad you use the Amplified version. So do I.

Now, how DO you define ’scripture’. How did the author of Ephesians or II Timothy define ’scripture’. Are they indeed the same?

I say they are not.

What God says is perfect. What man says is not. If Joe someday says that what I said is what God said and is therefore perfect, Joe is in error.

Jesus’s ministry pointed out many errors in the Mosaic Law and gave us a new law, the Law of Christ. The Mosaic Law brought death, the Law of Christ, salvation. Choose between the two, only don’t say there are the same because they are not.

Truly, your post was good, I have no disagreement with it except for the assumptions you make that most make to this day but never made say 1800-2000 years ago.

jmj, it is true in Zechariah 9:9 that Jesus was fulfilling that prophecy. Yet we also can note that in Zechariah 12:10; 13:6 the Bible refers to the wounds in his hands, but make not mention as to the wounds in his side as does Thomas in John 20:25.

jmj, the whole point is Zechariah spoke of a humble king, not a flashy king. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. YET, Jesus still had it within his power to do otherwise. Jesus had free choice. He chose to exercise wisdom and discretion. We would like to see that in our ministers today, regardless of the magnitude of their wealth or the size of their congregation.

#145,

I didn’t really interpret you as being mean-spirited. No apology is necessary. You obviously are a religious person and I respect that wholeheartedly.

I am not a particularly educated person in the area of religion, and in my lay mind, it amazes me to see the variation of opinions that can be formed by so many different people all reading the same book. I frankly don’t know whose opinion is “correct” so I read and try to decide for myself.

The fact that we all feel so passionately about it is a good thing in my opinion. If we were disinterested, there would be no passion, and thus no discussion about God. It is my belief that God likes for us to discuss Him. How else would He stay in our hearts?

jmj, btw, the ‘prophets’ and ‘teachers’ and ‘evangelists’ of today are not teaching the same Gospel taught 2000 years ago. The true gospel is very, very, very rarely taught today and certainly not by mainstream organized religion.

That is because the true gospel reveals their evils, their manipulative ways, their misleading. It’s because it leads people to walk in the Spirit vs dogma and church doctrine. It’s because it leads people to be givers, not victums.

The true gospel revolves around the concept of the Law of Christ, a subject I never hear any pastor address. You probably don’t even know what the Law of Christ is even though it’s referred to often in the new testiment. Do you know what it is? If not, you’ve never been exposed to the Gospel as early Jews and Gentiles were.

Do you know the shortcomings of the Mosaic Law? If not, you’ve never heart the True Gospel. Do you have an understanding of historical uses of written language in culture and religion? If not, …

Talents -

I’m sure you’re the only one that really knows what everyone should be preaching. Why don’t you write a book or start your own ministry in order to help all the millions of people that are being led astray by all the “evil preachers” since you seem to have the “corner on the market”. Come on man, none of us have it all figured out. Don’t be silly.

I am really floored by your arrogance, and your attitude. I do know what you are talking about. I am a seasoned minister of the Gospel in full time ministry.

I agree that the true Gospel must be taught and preached. Here it is in a nutshell. Let’s see if it measures up to your standards. God sent His son, born of a virgin, He (Jesus) lived a sinless life, died on the Cross for the sin of the world, rose from the dead on the 3rd day and He now sits at God’s right hand and He is praying for us. Not only that, but He wants us to have a relationship with Him through Jesus. Salvation - a free gift for all. Pretty simple. That’s what I am hearing from a lot of men and women in the ministry.

With all due respect, I think you mean well, but let’s pray for these preachers that are not walking worthy of their calling, and let’s remember that they are human too.

That’s all I know to do. Pray and keep my own heart right. What more can we do?

Well said #148. We need to be humble and kind. No doubt about it. I see your point.

Remember, Jesus is coming back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords in a pretty amazing and spectacular way and maybe even a little “flashy” according to Revelation.

Yes, the return will indeed be flashy. I just don’t want to see today’s ministers getting a head start on God’s return. That’s supposed to be His show. In our temporal world today, the word of God through Jesus should come from one more closely akin to riding the donkey.

#153, well said.

jmj, your understanding of the gospel lacks any historical or cultural perspective. Jesus challenged political & religious leaders of his day in such a way it’s never been done since.

“That’s what I am hearing from a lot of men and women in the ministry.” That’s the problem. Everyone is so much in agreement, few go to God to say, “I’m an open book, YOU teach me”.

And then, those who do, don’t believe what is revealed to them.

The one essential element in your definition of the Gospel was “Salvation - a free gift for all.” But salvation from what? How about salvation from condemnation? from legalism? from literalism?

And to what? Eternal life. Everlasting life. “Thy Kingdom COME” rather than “Thy Kingdom that will someday be.”

It’s more than a place, it’s a condition. It’s more than just good news, it’s the Good News first to a culture who was controlled by Rome and led by Priests.

Jesus, the author of the idea of the seperation of church and state, exposed Pharisees because salvation wasn’t acheived through obedience to laws, edicts and rituals. Jesus brought it all down to love for God and others.

I noticed you didn’t define the Law of Christ but I just gave you all the clue you need to know. Yet, the Law of Christ was ESSENTIAL to understanding the gospel. It wasn’t in your definition and, therefore, made your definition soarly incomplete.

Let me ask you, how many people who ‘accept the gospel’ are instructed in the absolute necessity of ‘love’ in their lives? But he who has not love, has not Christ and deceives himself. It wasn’t included in your definition of the gospel but it’s the foundation.

My apologies if I am coming across as arrogent. I’m certain some thought the same of Christ.

“That’s all I know to do. Pray and keep my own heart right. What more can we do?”

I don’t believe there is much more one can do but speak truth when truth is lacking.

Talent, have you noticed jmj trying to soften his tone and reconcile with us? Perhaps this is something we all can do here. What say you?

#150 How could the gospel have been taught for 2000 years when it was not written until at least 70 AD. And that is Mark, with Matthew being a copy and correction of Mark with the author of Matthew stealing 600 versus word for word from Matthew. He then changed stories like the fig tree to make the more magical changing the nature of Jesus. He corrected errors like misquotes from scripture changing the intent of the passage. Then he added birth, childhood and a passion story using scripture metaphor to guide him. He did this around 74 AD to explain away the fact the chosen people, the Jews had not accepted this story. That is why is the passion he developed is so horribly anti-Semitic. Even the name Judas means “Jew”. This was not lost on his target audience. He added in the contrived parts not in Mark about stationing soldiers at the tomb then having the Jewish Council bribe them to spread rumors about grave robbers. No wonder we had the holocaust in western society. Not only that, ask any Hebrew scholar, it makes no sense that on the eve of Passover that the Jewish Council in Jerusalem would drop everything to meet over the issue of this man named Jesus. Nor would a Roman Governor give up a state criminal to the wishes of the vote of a crowd of colonial subjects, lunacy and again contrived. The massacre of the innocents in early Matthew also shows how this author uses metaphors from earlier scripture like Exodus without. Such an event in that period f time would have left a historical marker.
Don’t take my word for it, read and compare these two gospels. They were never meant to be in the same room together, let alone in the same book. Then read the accounts of the baptism in Luke and in John. If some people want a seven-day creation, they need to wrap their hands around a new testament that is in itself a mass of contradiction. Paul only mentions the crucifixion, ascension, resurrection, and those he speaks of mostly in spiritual terms. He knew nothing of the gospel particulars and never speaks of them. Maybe because they were all invented later than his preaching.
So we can seek the truth and not waste time with falsehoods that generate hate.

Matt, this is a great discussion. Can you keep this thread from falling off so we can keep posting to it this week?

Thanks.

rmacevoy, you don’t speak around the bush. Sometimes people need that direct approach to get them thinking.

I believe an accurate understanding of the Gospel corrects much of the ‘contradiction’ in the new testement, but I know of what you speak.

Unfortunately, most religious leaders totally disregard much of what you just stated simply because they don’t have the courage to consider that any of it might possibly be true.

Indeed, much has been added to ’scripture’ for various reasons and much is misunderstood about ’scripture’ that has been cannonized.

Someday, perhaps, people will wake up to reality, but not until it suits the interests of the religious leaders that control the minds of the people.

btw, rmacevoy, you’re use of the word “metaphors” was well noted. Isn’t it interesting that certain passages are only ‘metaphors’ while others are ‘literal’. Who decides these things? Hmmm.

I believe a metaphorical interpretation of Genesis is vastly superior in it’s spiritual ‘nutritional’ value than a literal one.

I think if we stick with the 10 Commandments and the Lord’s prayer, we should be okay.

That a boy #161. Smartest thing I’ve heard all day.

You know what, the masses are interested or drawn to Christ by the arguments posted above.

People want to be loved and they are drawn to God because of His Love, because He is love.

People want to know God, live the best they can and have the abundant “zoe” life that Jesus said He came to give the world. John 10:10

He is the only way to God. John 14:6

We’re wasting our time and insulting one another to think that any of us have this one figured out.

#162 paragraph two should read:

You know what, the masses are NOT interested or drawn to Christ by the arguments posted above.

Excuse my error.

everyone makes mistakes. When you fork out for a first class ticket you expect a certain level of service and it is easy to get upset at a perceived slight. If I were Mrs Osteen, I would put out a statement apologizing to the airline and for the inconvenience I caused to fellow passengers and particularly those in coach class, and then I would move on.

Silence will not make this go away. If an altercation gets to a point when you are involuntarily removed from an aircraft, then it is serious. People are going to ask more questions and wonder if she received fairer treatment than the manic-depressive gunned down in Florida. I doubt if she banged on the cockpit door- that is a felony offence and will not be ignored.

and Mr Joel Osteen may want to add a postcript to his next sermon. “no matter how positive you are or try to be, some little things have the ability to get on your nerves- it happens to everyone.”

I wonder how he felt when all this was taking place. I sincerely believe he was powerless to intervene. Believe me, my own wife is quite sweet but when something upsets her at the checkout she can make her feelings known in no uncertain terms no matter how much I tell her to leave it. You don’t read about her because she travels coach and 99% of the time she is a sweet working mother and wife raising four kids in surburbia.

well said Robbo

I was on Conti flight 1602 on Monday and observed the whole event. In fact, I was upgraded to first class to sit in the seat she vacated. It was a very ugly event. And the rest of the passengers were helpless to sit and watch her tantrum, and wait almost two hours while the airline took all of the luggage out to find their bags.

Passengers who were right there told me she came on angry and it just escalated. On of the African American female flight attendants was struck by Mrs. Osteen in the breast, so I was told by one other female flight attendant. The passengers were very anxious, and the airline did nothing to communicate with the passengers.

I was called this morning by the airline customer affairs department, and they wanted to know what I could add to the facts. I told them, and they said it was just an event where the airline was trying to deal with a passenger satisfaction issue. I said, it was an issue of a celebrity getting preferential treatment over the rest of the affected customers of their airline. You can contact Continental at 713-324-2961, ask for Ms. Segura.

I think Mrs. Osteen should apologize to all who were placed in a very uncomfortable situaion by her temper.

Preston, thanks for the clarification. It’s as I suspected, and hopefully the apologists for the Osteens will stop trying to defend the indefensible.

I wonder what Joel and Victoria are discussing as they sit by the fireplace in their Vail chalet?

Do you think maybe they are teleconferencing with their “handlers”, spinmeisters, and PR people?

Or are they praying for guidance?

Hmmmm……

Women are controlled by their emotions rather than being in control OF their emotions.

Bring all your bodily members under submission to Christ.

I fly quite a bit, probably not as much as Joel Osteen but enough to answer a few important questions posed here. Flying, today, in coach class is a miserable experience. Truly, people are treated like cattle and quite often flight attendants exhibit a rudeness uncommon among even normal people. If you are flying all the time like Joel Osteen and you are able to raise funds for your church for events and you need to be in tip-top shape when you get there then paying the extra money for first-class is very justifable. Not because you want to be pampered, but because flying coach on many planes, is an almost inhuman experience (trust me, that’s how I usually fly). Likewise if he is going on vacation with his family the week before Christmas (probably to be back in time for Christmas services) and wants to relax, what’s wrong with he and his family traveling first class. Perhaps with his busy schedule the trip was planned last minute which could have caused coach and first class tickets to be a similar price. We don’t know.
When we say that this proves that he is a false preacher, it is we who are being un-Christian (and judgemental) not he.
As for Victoria’s dispute with the flight attendant: Some people say that the Osteen’s are too sugary and good. I’ve tried to be nice and a gentleman on planes with flight attendants but have found that sometimes, as in other life situation, it is he who barks loudest who is heard. As far as I am concerned she may have over-reacted (don’t know - wasn’t there) but more power to her and kudos for not letting those nasty flight attendants who think that if you paid a thousand bucks for a seat on a plane you don’t merit having a clean seat.

I hope the flight attendant is fired.

I could write a book on how horrible airlines treat their customers and a little “divine discontent” on Mrs. Osteen or anyone elses part is to be appluaded as a good thing.

I hope this whole matter brings attention to the miserable conditions on flying today and that supporters of Joel Osteen and or anything good in the world boycott Continental Airlines.

It’s funny how one third-hand story can destory in some peoples eyes the entire work of a good man.

#170 - so the eyewitness accounts are all wrong? Please.

I fly all the time also, and a 2 or 3 hour flight in coach is nothing. Try flying to China in coach.

And please, Christ carried the cross for God’s sake (and ours, pun intended). These “anointed” men and women “of God” can stand a little inconvenience once in awhile.

Keep giving them your money, they love people like you. You’re going to heaven. Praise Jesus. Amen. Allelulia. Bow your heads. Life is great. Afterlife is better. How much are you giving today? Plant that seed. Thank you Jesus.

And, by the way, I’ve been flying Continental since 1989. Never have I had a bad experience with a flight attendant. Your apologist rationale for her behavior is quite pathetic.

You wonder why I shake my head.

Shaker,

Perhaps they are considering what type of treatment the lady of the house will undergo and at what facility?

Or, perhaps they are considering sending the demons into a herd of horses?

Or, even more believable, perhaps they will disclose that Victoria’s attempts to evangelize the heathen stewardesses were not received as expected so she had no other recourse than to sleigh the woman with the ’spirit’ by the laying on of hands and praying the prayer of the faithful.

#164 robbo - I know what you mean! When those women get going, watch out!

#172 - too funny!

I think Joel has to address this at services this weekend. It’s unfortunate that the true meaning of Christmas will become secondary to this story.

But just think of all the people that will show up now! They’re going to get an even bigger haul of cash than they thought! Isn’t capitalism at work in the church a beautiful thing?

#166,

After reading your post, it struck me that nowhere in there was mention made of Joel Osteen being an unruly passenger. The whole stinking mess was because of his wife. I certainly wouldn’t want others to judge me by the actions of my wife, just as I’m sure my wife wouldn’t want to be judged on the basis of my actions. The discussion here is Victoria Osteen’s behavior, not how we feel about Joel Osteen. I think Robbo said it very well here:

Believe me, my own wife is quite sweet but when something upsets her at the checkout she can make her feelings known in no uncertain terms no matter how much I tell her to leave it.

#170 Kevin–
I agree that flying coach class has become very uncomfortable, but in my experience you are too harsh on the flight attendants. I think they are a very professional group, you only have to have an emergency to see how they respond.

I was on the flight, and talked to the passengers who were withing touching distance of the event, and also I talked to the flight attendants.

Another fact to consider. I live very close to the new Osteen church, and view his congregation going to church on Sunday mornings. Fine looking, well dressed, middle class people. I do not think Mr. Osteen would want the facts of this put to full view of his congregation. Throughout Mrs. Osteen’s tantrum, Mr. Osteen remained cool and tried to manage the situation, and, as a married man of many years, I understand that he does not have, and should not be expected to have control over his wife’s anger issues.

This should not be blamed on those flight attendants in the first class, or coach class, section who are serving those of us fortunate to be able to afford a ski trip.

#169: Settle down, Talents.

Victoria Osteen is lucky there was no Air Marshall onboard that flight. That is if the account of the flight I read is true. If she got out of her seat when the flight attendat told her not to and approached the flight cabin door with airline personnel telling her to get back to her seat with cabin doors closed, she would have found herself face down and handcuffed on the floor.

The doors closed usually means that the passengers are in their seats, belted and the plane is being readied for push back from the gate. Flight attendants have a certain amount of authority granted to them by federal law. Passengers have a similar amount of responsibility to comply with their instructions by law as well. When you are sitting in first class, you are closer to the cockpit door, which makes you more suspect to observation and more suspect of doing something criminally dangerous.

Remember what happened just weeks ago with a mentally ill man in Florida who did not have a bomb. He ended up being shot after leaving the plane. If she appeared threatening to a flight attendant in any way and a marshal was on that plane, I doubt she would have been shot, but she certainly would have been restrained and it would not have been fun for her at all.

It might have taught her and other diva types a lesson in courtesy.

177 Bringing my fingers under submission.

Actually, going home for the day.

It’s been fun. I’m glad I came here to get a few hints as to what really happened.

I have flown about a million commercial miles and never experienced anything like this story.

My wife said it was probably just hormones.

As a motivational speaker it was important for Mr. Osteen to keep his cool , joining in the fray could have been costly for him.

I think the most interesting comment comes from his communications department as damage control. How could Mrs. Osteen “enter the jetway to talk with the pilot….” You just can’t do that once the doors have closed … up front is the the flight deck not the jetway.

The last person to pull a stunt like that ended up being taken out by air marshals a couple of weeks back. Mrs. Osteen should count here blessings ….

Preston - I’ve dealt with Ms. Segura before when I’ve had issues with Continental or needed help. Sometimes I think she’s the only one there who knows how to do anything.

Tell me there’s a time in life when we all haven’t messed up severely - and gotten away with it by the grace of God. Even if she messed up big time here, let’s not be too quick to judge them in totality without really knowing more about them. I certainly don’t know them or follow them. Let’s move on to something really important.

I’ve worked on several habitat houses over the last
20 years. I’ve seen VERY little minority participation outside of the people the home is going to. Predominantly white churches seem to help not only their own, but others outside of their church. It doesn’t cost a volunteer anything except gas to go work on a habitat house. That and giving up some time. Can anybody from the minority community tell me what volunteer work their churches do outside of their own congregation?

#176 Preston.

I share your sentiments on flight attendants. They do a great job under trying circumstances- I think air travel is unnatural anyway, the way it defies gravity. The discomfort of coach class is the price we have to pay for cheap air travel.

Were you really on that flight?

I think it is a credit Mr Osteen that none of the news reports of this incident from all sources says anything bad about his own behaviour. I have my own reservations about his theology but it is just so unfair for anyone to use this incident in which his wife rightly or wrongly felt dissed to pronounce any judgement on him.

#168. headshaker.
please don’t gloat. we all have to answer for our actions one day. The whole incident is a storm in a teacup,just that it happened on airplane in post 9/11-armed air marshall times and involved the wife of a famous preacher. Personally I have not read the Osteen bestseller “your best life now” and I am certainly not his apologist. Indeed my theology is more along the lines of my best life being the one to come in that “city with foundations whose builder and architect is the Lord” (Hebrews Chapter 11).

I might also add that I am happy with my present life. I have learnt like the Apostle Paul, the secret of being content in all circumstances.

robbo, I’m not gloating at all.

I respectfully disagree that this incident is a “storm in a teacup”. Even as an isolated incident, it’s serious.

Since it involved Victoria Osteen, it’s apparent that there are a lot of other things regarding Lakewood and other megachurches that people have issues with. Go read some other blogs and forums from around the country.

I’ll add to that, if you get Habitat’s magazine, you’ll see 95% caucasian faces in that too.

Of course the minorities aren’t working on Habitat houses. They’re too busy building new ones for all the homebuilders. Geez.

I’ve got to go with Feagan, Wil, Headshaker, Squawk, et al on these mega churches. I would never blindly believe anything a preacher has to say unless it was straight from the Bible. Why do you think we have so many “denominations” today? MAN decided to change what Jesus established HIS church to be in the first century. It is not Olsteen’s church, it is Christ’s church.

Most of those denominations explain themselves by saying, “Well, it’s not what the Bible says, but I think it would make the worship more meaningful.”

So this is what we have after 2,000 years after Christ’s church was established. The very term demonimation means division. Christ said there should be no division.

As you can tell, I am not big on the “social/entertainment gospel”, churches spending more for gyms, workout equipment, etc. than they do actually preaching the gospel. I once went to the 2nd Baptist with my daughter who was a member. I took my Bible and was ready take notes and look at scripture. I wondered why no one else had Bibles. Then I understood as Mr. Young referred to 1 verse in John during the entire “lesson.” The purpose of the Church is to preach the gospel to save souls, not to provide a social, entainment for the members. If anyone wants me to follow this up with scripture, let me know. I’ve got a scriptual answer to any of your questions.

headshaker,

I appreciate your respectful response. I said “storm in a teacup’ because the FBI has declined to take this further.

Don’t think she would have been arrested if she physically hit a flight attendant and banged on the cockpit door as is being alleged? These are felony offences and like I said before, someone got shot for similar behaviour in Florida not so long ago.

I think that is where the debate is going to be and should be in the next few hours ie, did she get preferential treatment.

as for the debate about megachurches, it begun long ago.Churches closing for Christmas etc, absence of the Cross, etc etc.

robbo, I agree. It’ll be interesting to see how all this “shakes” out.

Thanks.

Victoria is human. Just like all of us. She just happens to live in a glass house and when she messes up “royally” the whole country gets to point a finger at her.

She lost it. She REALLY shouldn’t have.

She is young, went to the top fast and “her roots” haven’t had much time to go deep to keep her grounded for those “messy” situations.

I’m sure she’ll learn the grandest of lessons from this. Too bad she didn’t get to learn it when she was yet an unknown!

Yep, she’s human just like the guy that was shot in Miami. He forgot is bipolar medication and is dead, she forgot her Midol and all is forgiven.

God must have been watching over her.

I don’t know what transpired on that flight with Mrs. Osteen. None of us know exactly what happened.
I find it hard to believe that she did anything so unruly as to truly have to be removed from the plane. She may or may not have anger issues, which could easily come out on a plane.

I do know that if I was seated in first class or coach and a liquid was dripping on me, I would refuse to stay seated with an unknown substance dripping on me.

Maybe I would also be escorted off the plane or shot in cold blood.

I think it is a sad commentary that the only people we are catching on planes today are mentally disturbed or pastors’ wives.

When is the last time we caught someone dangerous… I don’t know say a terrorist?

As regards to comments by Preston and others regarding flight attendants today. Perhaps I am too young to say this but they aren’t as a group what they used to be. We have a dear friend who is a flight attendant. I’ve never flow with her but I am sure she is wonderful. A long-time friend of mine also became a flight-attendand and I am sure she is equally wonderful. On shorter US flights I have had flight attendants who have been great - telling jokes, serving extra food, smiling, warm, etc. They exist. They are great. They are a minority.

I fly across the ocean (Atlantic) atleast once a month combined with various in-continent flights.
I don’t want to change the subject but the conditions at US security and the airport in general and connected with the airport are miserable (my bags which they always loose have been delivered by suprise at 4am in the morning by a man banging on my door)
The flight attendants dissapear for hours while they stay in the back of the plane and chat because they are tired after two hours of work - the rest of us work for eight hours a day. They do not respond to the signal call. The last flight they brought me an orange juice instead of a tomatoe juice and told me it was “close enough.”
In general, they act bothered when they are doing there paid jobs. The security at the airport is only good at harrasing 80 year old women who don’t want to take off their shoes.

There are exceptions of course, they are far from the rule.

Sorry, I give the airlines overall 0 out of 10.

#191 - if she was removed, it was serious. Period, end of story. Eyewitness accounts have verified that she was out of control.

Are you flying Bin Laden Airways or what? You’ve got some serious flight attendant issues. I give most airlines an 8, and Continental a 10+ based upon 16 years of frequent flyer experience with them.

#182 robbo-yes I was really on the flight, Conti 1602. And if you read my earlier, I gave you the name and number of the Continental customer service dept.

I just got back from an afternoon of skiing, it was great. Some good comments finally starting to filter through here.

On further reflection, I think this is a class warfare issue, there I said it. People who can afford to fly first class and spend their Christmas at Vail vs flight attendants who are expected to serve in an inhuman capacity.

Look at the transit workers strike in NY. The average transit worker is paid $45K/yr and with overtime averages $55K/yr. Sounds like a lot of money unless you expect to raise a family and live a modest life.

The whole TV evangelist scene, ratted hair witches who cry and their mascara runs. Remember Jimmy Swaggert? I had a New Orleans banker tell me years ago that Swaggert banked with him, and if he did not receive $100K per DAY from old ladies sending pension fund checks, the minister went into depression.

Question: what daily cash flow is required to pay off the remodeled Compaq center? What do you think is the average income of the people who attend that church? I have no idea, but the owners are hitting home runs. Just don’t affect me with your ego trip…

Have any of you gone into a store or a restaurant and had a rude waiter or employee that just pissed you off to the point you demanded a manager? I bet you have. Well, if that happends on an airplane you get your ass taken off to the holding pen or get shot.

Victoria might have had a piece of crap on her seat and asked politely to have it removed. The flight attendant might have told her to shut up and sit down. When you pay the price for first class you are supposed to get the extra service. All she did was demand the service she paid for and she got the boot. Lucky she didnt run off the plane. She might have got a chance to meet god personally.

most of you guys need to be quiet cause you dont know nothing about Lakewood and Joel’s family. And Headshaker she was removed because of the riot they had to get her out of there. something could of happened. AND you CANT always believe the news. they will say anything just to keep you watching if you havent noticed. and of course they know its going to cause conflict against people. thats what the news is for. and , im not saying its true, but what if victoria did mess up half of you guys are going to talk down on her for one mistake?? before judging anyone look at your self. NO ONE is perfect!! he without sin cast the first stone!

I am still in shock they were flying “commercial”. Private jet being serviced?

ashley, I have a bridge for sale. It’s in Brooklyn, and it’s cheap. If you’re interested, let me know.

Gregg, they said it was a liquid, so it would have to have been diarrhea. As far as I’m concerned, if she can afford first-class to Vail during Christmas week, she can afford crap-proof clothing.

headshaker im from there is that suppose to be funny??? im 17 years old and i have more brains then you!! you need to get a life instead of writing about people on line. i dont care if you would to give me the bridge for free i still wouldnt take it.

#192 - I am in total agreement with you (for a change :-D. There was no excuse for Mrs. Olsteen’s actions. Where is the patience, love, understanding and humility that SHOULD be expressed by someone who claims to be a Christian. I wonder why they didn’t fine her for the time on the ground and the resulting delay in getting their luggage off. They fined the man who was afraid of flying and took sleeping pills and booze. They fined him $25,000, I think, but then, he isn’t a “celebrity.” Just shows you what “celebrities” get away with. This has nothing to do with Osteen’s preaching or his church. Why was he and his wife handled with kid gloves, when the ordinary bloke faces huge fines? Someone explaint that to me.

#200 - neo, I knew you’d eventually come aroundto my way of thinking

Seriously, on top of this, why were they going to Vail Christmas week? It’s prime soul-saving season, there are homeless, hurricane victims, etc. all waiting to be ministered to.

No more fire and brimstone. Now, in order to get to heaven, just acknowledge Christ as your savior, and know that He wants you to be prosperous so you don’t show up at the pearly gates stinking to high heaven (pun intended). Life is great, afterlife is great, love one another, smile, make a donation, Alleluia, plant that seed, see ya next week, God bless.

ashley, you’re writing about people online also, aren’t you?

If you’re 17, I’m the Pope. Go back to your Barney video, and say hi to the Wiggles for me.

Oh, and I wouldn’t give you the bridge for free anyway, so there!

my my my. If you all don’t like Olsteen, you’re welcome to come to my church. My church is called
“The Church of the open wallet.” I have an ATM machine in the lobby for you tithe payers. We also feature a check cashing service. There is a 10% fee on checks cashed. And we also offer our congregation payday loans. A mere fee of 15.00 for every hundred you borrow. Now on communion day, we do accept tips for our servers. If you’re stingy, don’t come. We only want those that can give. We are sorry that we can no longer accept foods stamps for the communion wafers. Oh yeah, and God bless.

Headshaker, I agree with you totally on this topic (not that there is anything wrong with that)! :-D.

Ashley, you are too young to criticize your elders!
Might I suggest that you don’t have more brains, but you have more passion. Good try, though!

#203 - There’s a church down the road from mine. It’s called the “Church of What’s Happenin’ Now!”

Your post was funny by the way! heh, heh

This just keeps getting more and more negative. Headshaker, your tone is getting pretty rough (going after teens and all) You guys wouldn’t even approve if every preacher in the world lived under a bridge and stood in line at the soup kitchen. you’d still run them down in order to build yourselves up. No one wants to speak of the good things these guys are doing and teh people that are finding help and God.

Headshaker, why so bitter towards ministers that are successful at what they do? Really?

Hey, and by the way, the whole “you wonder why I shake my head” line is all used up.

Here’s an an alternate opinion: A preacher’s wife threw a temper tantrum. Since when is that newsworthy and deserving of so much attention. I know, he’s a big shot. But he’s just a man and his wife is just a woman. And she threw a temper tantrum. So what? As for the arguments for & against him. If you like him, listen and support him. If you don’t, there’s other TV stations and other churches. Quit gossiping! That’s a sin too!

Okay, everyone settle down, or else I’ll send Headshaker to confession and Ashley to bed without dessert.

Matt,

Don’t quit your day job. I don’t think comedy is going to work for you.

Well, chiming in late here, but Osteen is a pretty good motivational speaker, but a pretty weak minister. He preaches almost the same thing in every one of his TV broadcasts, and, oh, btw, there is this guy Jesus that gets mentioned at the end of some of the broadcasts.

I hope Lakewood has a really strong small group/bible study framework set up or they’re really little more than a weekly motivational seminar.

They have a way to go to reach Tilton levels of corruption, though. Right now they probably not corrupt, but definitely need to get a better scriptural grounding.

Got God?
In replies to messages about Victoria Osteen and my church.

Victoria is a mighty women of God. Do you know the that the largest church in America is in the middle of Houston, TX…it’s such a great thing to see such a revival. I do attend Lakewood and love it. For those who don’t know, yes Joel does use scripture in his sermons.

There are many ministries conntected with Lakewood…and yes we did help the Katrina victims. Not everything that is done has to be in the media.

And it’s not about “Religion”…it’s about the “Relationship” you have with the Lord. Have you accepted Christ in your heart, do you have etnernal life. God wants us to praise him and I rebuke the enemy who is trying to tear us down and tear down our church and my pastors…enemy..you have already been defeated.

Victoria is so precious…I’m sure what happened was taken totally out of context. Although they are taking a vacation with their family, we heard from Victoria this evening at service.

Do not judge…instead look towards your own walk with the Lord. Is your walk based upon skill or passion?

“If anyone’s in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone…and the new has come” 2Cor.

Merry Christmas and remain in love and peace.

#209: Dunno about that, pastor. People seemed to like the jokes. And after watching Headshaker, Mike, Big45 and Squawk have at you, I’d say you might want to stick to the pulpit. Tend the flock and leave the blogging up to the trained pros.

I’m gonna have to agree with Squawk and Feagan. If you’re going to speak with authority because of your status as a preacher, it doesn’t seem fair to withhold the name of your church so we can see for ourselves.

But hey, it’s Christmas. No hard feelings. I’d like to hear ya preach one of these days. Drop me an email at mattbramanti@gmail.com and let me know where I can hear you. You never know, I just might be your 100th sheep.

Matt, my priest is still trying to free up enough time for me to go to confession!

jmj, I’m bitter because I don’t like people who use the name of Jesus to take from the poor and make themselves rich. I despise it. I despise the way they twist Scripture to rationalize their tremendous wealth and prosperity. I despise the way they “solicit” people of lesser means to “plant seeds” because these people are really not going to get what they want unless they give it to the church (err, I mean God). I despise the way they manipulate people with a watered-down message that contradicts what Jesus actually taught and intended.

I could go on and on.

Now, do Joel and Victoria fit in this category? I don’t really know because I’ve only been to Lakewood a few times and I’ve only met them personally a couple of times. As I said earlier, I think Joel is a great guy and sincere for the most part. I would hope that they are different, but when something like this happens, it makes you wonder.

Also, I never lumped all ministers/pastors/priests/etc. into one big category. I happen to know many wonderful, sincere, honest, loving, caring, Scripturally-accurate, etc. people of faith. Interestingly enough, all of them are very humble, live modestly, and they’re in their backyards Christmas week helping those who need it. Hmmmm…..

You wonder why I shake my head (yes, it’s my slogan and I’ll use it whenever I please, thank you sir, and God Bless).

#211- If it’s about your “Relationship with the Lord”, then why is Joel’s picture plastered all over the place, and you can’t find a cross?

How many people at Lakewood are trying harder to have a relationship with Joel instead of Jesus? I’ve heard this from your own members.

Did you see the interview with Larry King? I would think hard-core evangelicals would be pretty upset with the things Joel said.

Did I mention our ushers carry credit card machines as well. We make giving easy! Remember folks, give to the lord but send it to my address.
God bless!

That’s right Matt. Some folks should attend to their glocks and leave the flogging up to us!

I am late coming into this party.

My first reaction was: what was the “disgreement” about that started it all? I still would like to know.

On the vacation to Vail, the Osteens can do whatever they wish with their money but it does not look good.

Separate and apart from the original incident.

1) Yes, Joel was criticized for his lackluster appearance in the Larry King Show. Joel was given at least 2 opportunities to state unequivocally that Jesus was the only way to the Father. He deflected every time beacuse he did not want to come accross as a “divider.”

2) I too did notice, in Lakewood Church, a lack of the preeminent symbol of Christ today, the Cross. But I have only seen the “special” on TV and have not been to Lakewood Church personally.

3) I have heard, my guess about 10 sermons, by Joel Osteen. I cannot recall a single instance of an expository sermon.

4) Joel’s sermons seem to get pretty close to the “health, wealth and prosperity gospel (HWPG).” Since I have not studied a large number of his sermons I do not know but, for what I have listened, it sound like it. I have listened to others that say that Joel does preach HWPG and that he also falls within the category of “word of faith” movement; aka “name and claim it”.

#211 “Is your walk based upon skill or passion?”

What kind of question is that?

2 Kings 20
3 “Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

Are we not judge? Ah, the most misused verse in the Bible “Judge not lest ye be judged …”

Matthew 7
1″Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

If you are going to judge make sure that your motives are pure. For if you judge others differently that you judge yourself you are a hypocrite and a law breaker because you are judging using false scales.

Romans 2
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Proverbs 11
1 The LORD abhors dishonest scales,
but accurate weights are his delight.

When we judge we must judge rightly, righteously.

1 Corinthians 6
1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Beware of judging but judging we all must do.

Jaime, good to see you here. Good comments - you obviously get it also.

Merry Christmas.

HS

Thank you and Merry Christmas!

I have no idea what “really” happened on that plane, but even IF Victoria actually did throw a tantrum, I’m kinda relieved that even pastor’s wives have a bad day now and then. Yes, they should be better behaved, but shouldn’t we all? I’ve never met these people, and although I don’t condone her alleged behavior, it’s nice to know even the pastor’s wife can lose it now and then. The liquid in her seat, which by itself might not have been that big of a deal, we don’t know what other things happened prior to that, and this could have been the last straw for Victoria. Granted, an airplane is the LAST place you would want to cause problems, but I guess when you’re frustrated, you might not take the time to fully analyze your actions. I’ll be she’s mortified by her behavior, and maybe we can all learn to be a better person because of this. I’m just thankful that my own errors in the past haven’t been fully disclosed in every newspaper in the nation!!!!

The main reason why I want to know what actually happened is to determine if Ms. Osteen “blew” it or the crew of the plane overreacted.

Are people today so thin-skinned they cannot handle a customer without crying TO THE TERMINAL!

And if Ms. Osteen really banged on the cockpit’s door,
1)is she more equal than the rest of the animal’s at the farm?
2) what did her husband do / did not do about her behavior?

Folks, I can feel someone right now reaching for their checkbooks to send me some money. Think of it as planting a seed. Plant that seed in the palm of my hand and expect a blessing. I should be rich like Apostle Paul! Oh wait a minute. He was poor as dirt. Well, I should be rich like Peter! Oh wait a minute. He was also poor. Well, maybe I should be rich like Joel Olsteen! Yeah there ya go! Paul only wrote half the books of the new testament. That’s no match for Joel Olsteen’s multi-million dollar waterfalls.

#224 - I agree with you totally. LOL!

223 Jaime–As I mentioned earlier, I was on Conti 1602 and observed the actual event. There was a small amount of liquid on the arm rest, the flight attendants told her they would wipe it up right away. She really did lose her temper. It rapidly escalated.

Did you see the movie Anger Management? In the opening scene with Adam Sandler on the plane next to Jack Nicholson? Fellow passengers described it like that. She did go to the front to talk to the captain, and she pushed (the flight attendant said “hit”) a female flight attendant. It all happened quickly, and the flight crew told her to get away from the cockpit door, then told, (directed? requested?) that she leave the plane. The door was not yet closed, even though some accounts state the door had been closed.

Her husband was cool and calm, trying to manage the situation. He went off to talk to her, I presume, then came back to quickly get their bags and two kids, then the thre of them left the plane.

If you or I did this we would be lucky not to have been handcuffed and taken to the FBI office at the airport.

I though the flight attendants were trying to be professional, did not observe any bad temper on their part throughout.

This is not just a “mighty woman of God” losing her temper in my opinion having been there. This is a glimpse into the facade and patina these marketing geniuses have created.

Preston - you are right on!

Jesus is perfect in every way and they still crucified him; what chance does any of us has, let alone Victoria Osteen? Whoever she may be does not matter. As for the fact that Joel Osteen and his family fly first class, I would too, if I can afford it, preacher or no preacher. Why does anyone want to be poor, Christian or no Christian? As for tithing, it is in the bible and you should obey God so you’ll be blessed; I believe all pastors tithe. I praise God for everything I have and I will always claim His blessings. We humble ourselves before the Lord and we want to follow His way. And as we know, He is love –are you love?

Since Victoria and her husband have a very large forum to do good…positively…winning people to Jesus….so her wisdom and maturity must run even larger. Had she had the presence of mind to realize that her short tempered action would cause such a fiasco and so much uproar…perhaps she would have kept her mouth shut, wiped up the spill, and smiled.

Her “losing it” most importantly can hurt her credibility for the message she preaches.

Any minister that is hurt due to his/her failure hurts us all. Whether we agree with them doctrinally or not.

Galatians 6:1, “Brothers, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.”

I am a pastor’s wife and I have tried to imagine if I had done something of this nature and how absolutly horrible it would be for my actions to give opportunity for dirt to be thrown at the message I preach (I’d deserve dirt to be thrown at me)…but for it to give people opportunity to mock Jesus….for that reason alone we must all “possess our vessels unto honor”.

The spiritual thing to do would be to pray for them to have wisdom so that they would now handle this in a way that the offense they caused everyone on the plane to be forgiven.

This is NO EXCUSE, just wondering if you’ve read any books on HIllary Clinton? How she acted in the White House….lots of even worse stories there.

Point is….leaders should be and need to be held to a high standard. When they fall short it is a big deal. You gotta know that going in…..that is the wisdom that slipped Victoria’s mind that day…that hopefully will be branded there for life. I have a feeling it will.

#226 Thank you.

I found your original post.

Sound like someone who is used to be catered to. Good to know the Joel did try something. Seems like they have some issues to deal with.

She should issue a public apology (not a mere letter in a website) and to the flight crew and other passengers as well.

I don’t think he gets a salary from the church since his book has done so well. I think his book has made them wealthy so the comments about living extravagantly off of the tithes are not fair. I think he voluntarily stopped earning a salary.
I’m not sure why, but Christians can definitely be rude though.
I was sorry to see this story in the paper. I like his father and I like him - I watch him on tv every Sunday.

Why has his book done so well? Because of the church! Duh! If it wasn’t for Lakewood and the TV exposure he gets, there’s no book!

He didn’t make his money independent of the church.

How hard is that to understand?

That is a good point. You’re right, but that is still different from tithes.
My husband I talked about this last night. He says it does not look good and there’s no excuse for her behavior to be anything but impeccable in public places. Pastor’s wives should understand their importance to their husbands and to their church.

What would Jesus do?

He would not be jetting off to Aspen (flying first class) with his trophy wife!!!

No..there were no jets in Jesus day.

I do remember, however, Jesus being critized by the religious people of his day for letting a woman use EXPENSIVE perfume on him, healing on the sabbath day, eating with tax collectors and sinners, and MORE……and Jesus clothing was so nice that it was gambled for at the cross……not given to Goodwill.

Victoria’s behavior has nothing to do with them flying first class, how much money they make, and the like. You all sound like sour grapes to me!

One has nothing to do with the other. People in coach can be just as rude as people in first class.

Joel could have killed his fathers church. I’ve seen it happen! But he didn’t. He grew it 4 times bigger in 8 years. I think that deserves more the 25K a year!

People say that they have come to know Jesus and love Jesus more from being at Lakewood.

As far as $$…people are free to leave any church any time they want. They also freely give offerings. They are not foced to give. You don’t, so quit complaining about us who give to our churches (I don’t live in Houston). I’m sure that is the case at Lakewood as well.

A church of 20,000 has a lot more resposibility to carry than one of 100. The Bible says that the labororer is worthy of his hire. I’m not talking about abuse here with money….but to hear most people talk they’d want a pastor’s family to live in poverty…I suppose that would prove in their minds how spiritual they were.

Neither having money nor the lack of money has anything to do whatsoever with a person’s spirituality, honesty, or character.

What if the trip was a gift? What if they were flying for free? Nobody really knows. Proverbs says that a fool answers before he knows the whole story.

The issue is Victoria’s outburst. Period. How they spend their money is their business. Not ours. If they have done something wrong with their money then their yearly indepenent audit of their church (which they have to have legally..because of the money they have in their new building) will show any improprieties. And if they are squeekly clean..?

If you profess being a Christian then they are our brother and sister and we should pray for them.

No..there were no jets in Jesus day.

I do remember, however, Jesus being critized by the religious people of his day for letting a woman use EXPENSIVE perfume on him, healing on the sabbath day, eating with tax collectors and sinners, and MORE……and Jesus clothing was so nice that it was gambled for at the cross……not given to Goodwill.

Victoria’s behavior has nothing to do with them flying first class, how much money they make, and the like. You all sound like sour grapes to me!

One has nothing to do with the other. People in coach can be just as rude as people in first class.

Joel could have killed his fathers church. I’ve seen it happen! But he didn’t. He grew it 4 times bigger in 8 years. I think that deserves more the 25K a year!

People say that they have come to know Jesus and love Jesus more from being at Lakewood.

As far as $$…people are free to leave any church any time they want. They also freely give offerings. They are not foced to give. You don’t, so quit complaining about us who give to our churches (I don’t live in Houston). I’m sure that is the case at Lakewood as well.

A church of 20,000 has a lot more resposibility to carry than one of 100. The Bible says that the labororer is worthy of his hire. I’m not talking about abuse here with money….but to hear most people talk they’d want a pastor’s family to live in poverty…I suppose that would prove in their minds how spiritual they were.

Neither having money nor the lack of money has anything to do whatsoever with a person’s spirituality, honesty, or character.

What if the trip was a gift? What if they were flying for free? Nobody really knows. Proverbs says that a fool answers before he knows the whole story.

The issue is Victoria’s outburst. Period. How they spend their money is their business. Not ours. If they have done something wrong with their money then their yearly indepenent audit of their church (which they have to have legally..because of the money they have in their new building) will show any improprieties. And if they are squeekly clean..?

If you profess being a Christian then they are our brother and sister and we should pray for them.

First of all who are any of you to judge? Let he who has not ever sinned cast the first stone. Do any of you know exactly what happened? I dont, I wasnt there and neither were any of you. Did anyone ever think the flight attendant may have been rude to Mrs. Osteen? I think all of us have our bad days including pastors and pastors wives. No one is perfect except for Christ himself.
Further more, what is the problem w/ the Osteens going on a family vacation and/or flying first class? They work harder and longer hours than many people do. They have a job, they do it well and it just happens to pay well. They employee 100s, pay taxes, etc…etc… So be it! They deserve it. I’m certian that any of you out there would fly first class if you were able to do so. If you had the choice of taking a Limo or a Truck,..what would you take? I like anyone else out there would take the Limo.
Just because they teach the word of God does not mean they should live poorly. In fact they should be allowed to live well. Donald Trump has Trump Tower (among other things),…Joel Osteen has Lakewood Church. No one would consider bashing Donald for flying first class,..why should you bash Pastor Osteen for it? Joel & Victoria are doing a great job and hopefully they will have a plane of their own soon so they dont have to put up w/ this BS anymore. Many of you out there (not all) need to shut-up and have a MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Jeff B -

How do you know what Jesus would do? Your comment proves you dont know him very well!

You only wish you had a trophy wife and were able to go to Aspen - First Class,…..huh?

headshaker,
if you had a choice,…would you fly first class rather than coach? or would you prefer to take the bus?

Syd, If you’re comparing Osteen to Trump, and Lakewood to Trump Tower, I think you’ve made my point.

Matt, It does not appear Syd was comparing Osteen to Trump or Lakewood to the Trump Tower. I dont know what your point is? The point Syd made was frankly as to why the Osteen’s are being bashed to fly first class…. It’s because they can and deserve to do so. If you “could” fly first class, would you?
Syd, I got your point. I didnt get yours Matt.

It is amazing how much scuttlebutt this even has created. People have gone from the event to discussing how the Osteens spend their money. It is true that Joel and Victoria had a great deal of money even before he became Pastor of Lakewood Church. As a FORMER member of Lakewood Church I know this to be a fact.

The problem I have with this is that as such a public “Christian” figure, Victoria Osteen does NOT have the right to throw such a hissy fit in front of complete strangers. She is to be an example and acting like a spoiled petulant child is not the shining example of Christianity to be displayed! And I don’t care who you are; no one has the right to physically touch another person without his or her permission. Victoria had no right to touch the airline attendant; I do believe that could be construed as assault.

I know that had my seat been wet and I didn’t want to sit in it my husband would have traded seats with me if for no reason but to shut me up. I guess JO does not believe in chivalry. Or, put one of the kids in the seat. A towel or blanket in the seat is a great solution.

I certainly hope no one on that plane was on their way to a family emergency, a friend or family in the hospital dying, a job interview, or important business meeting because they obviously were not going to make it in time due to a little “spilled water.”

The couple are young and haven’t been under so much responsibility before. He was blessed with the church of his father. I do think he needs to put more emphasis on Jesus and why Jesus came and died and rose from the dead. If he has really been saved he will eventually I believe get more into the Scriptures.The Holy Spirit in him I would think would see to that……in due time.
As for the plane incident it happened and Mrs Osteen said she is sorry it happened. What else is she supposed to do ? People need to pray for the couple that God’s will be done thru him and her.

Amazed to see how many perfect people are on here.
I guess no one on here has ever lost their temper,
said something without thinking first, reacted before realizing what the consequences might be. Nooooooo, I’m sure everyone here has never done ANYTHING like that. Public figure, or regular joe, we have all at some point, done or said something we wish we hadn’t. IF, these allegations are true, we don’t even know what happened for sure! I wasn’t there, were any of you? She (Victoria Osteen) is human, just like me and you. Ever had a bad day? I know I have. No matter IF or what she did, the blood of Jesus will cover it and she will be forgiven!

I have attached myself to this story unfortunately.I think its because of my own experiences with cruel church people who abuse their position and power in order to gain money.I watched Lakewood online last night rather than on BET as usual, so I got to see Victoria behind the pulpit extolling her love love love for their people, and the “showtime” or worship or whatever the lights and dancing and singing into microphones is called. It made me sick. I just don’t see reverence to God in it. I won’t be watching Lakewood anymore and I am sad that my mother spent her hard earned money on Joel’s book as a gift for me.

241: Syd said:

Donald Trump has Trump Tower (among other things),…Joel Osteen has Lakewood Church. No one would consider bashing Donald for flying first class,..why should you bash Pastor Osteen for it

He absolutely compared the two.

244:

I guess no one on here has ever lost their temper, said something without thinking first, reacted before realizing what the consequences might be.

Not to the point where it merits review by the FBI. Not to the point of getting thrown off a plane.

Wasn’t Joel Osteen’s book a best-seller? Don’t people who write books get paid for the books they write? Also, he gets a salary from the church, which is his job, just like most of us have jobs. It seems to me that he can take his money and do whatever he wants with it. If he chooses to spend it on a nice vacation for his family, that’s his business. I bet he was not the only Christian in Colorado skiing for the holidays. He was probably not the only member of Lakewood there, either.

Also, you all make reference to him taking money from those people. I am not a member of Lakewood, but, I doubt seriously he is going in anyone’s pocket taking anything out. If his members choose to give freely of what they have, again, that’s their business. There is no crime in giving. For all you know, that ski trip could very well have been given to him and his family.

It’s obviously more to it than we know just by the fact Continental is hush-hush about it. The “witness” gave a watered down account of what happened. If it was serious, certainly the air marshalls and the FBI would be more concerned about it. I doubt it had anything to do with her being white. What race was the flight attendant? What was in the seat? Was the seat still damp after it was cleaned? Was it just water in the seat or something else? No one has given us answers to these questions, so you are only speculating about something that does not concern you.

The man is human. So are his wife and kids. No matter what he does, he’s going to come under scrutiny for it. And, this wasn’t about him, it was her. For the sake of peace, leave those people alone. If a person is doing something wrong that will bring shame to the kingdom, God has a was of allowing it to be exposed. God is the ultimate judge, not us.

As for the FBI’s involvement, we’re told it’s standard procedure for them to review all passenger removal incidents. According to Continental, this one is a closed case.

Pastor Joel Osteen preaches to an average of 40,000 people a week at Lakewood Church services. Lakewood opened in the former home of the Rockets, Compaq Center, back in July.

It took $90 million and a year and a half of renovations. Osteen’s ministry is taped and aired around the world. No doubt an apology to the delayed passengers of flight 1602 has been taped, too.

At least I’m Honest whenever I say I want your money! I don’t pretend to be a good man and lie to you. The Bible clearly says to preach the gospel for FREE! The bible says to sell it not!
Think of how much money these thieves have made on God’s word. All of you guys need to be horse whipped for following any of these preachers!

You bunch of blind fools will give until it hurts to these rich preachers while your poor brother can’t make ends meet. All of you will be accountable for your actions one day. When God asks you, “why are you paying for these preachers when I told them to preach to you for free?” You’ll pay for a multi-million dollar waterfalls while children go hungry and unclothed. Olsteen’s could never spend their money in their entire lifetime but yet want more. They have made it all on the backs of the poor seeking God. All of you should burn in hell for supporting any of these showboat preachers! Go to your local church and open a soup kitchen for the poor like the bible says do.

Whoa now, pastor. Lay off the “burn in hell”s.

Yeah, well that might have been a bit too strong.

Read 2 Corithians chaper 11 and read the life Apostle Paul went through in order to preach the gospel. Can you see any of these entertainers (preachers) going through this? These preachers tell you they are suppose to be rich because they preach the gospel. HA! And most people fall for it too!!!

Pastormoneybags…let me remind you of these few scriptures:

I Cor. 9:14..”Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.”

I Timothy 5:17, “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. For the scripture said, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And the laborer is worthy of his reward. Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.”

Matthew 26:6 “..Jesus was in Bethany…came a woman..having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head..when the disciples saw it they had indignation saying “To what purpose is this waste? For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. Jesus said..Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. For ye have the poor always with you; but me you have not always.” People in the Bible were complaining to Jesus for this woman wasting money on him when there were poor who could be given to…see below about Jesus treasurer and giving to the poor.

These are JUST A FEW scriptures in reference to your statements.

1) Other scriptures show Judas was the treasurer and regularily gave to the poor. Why have a treasurer if you have no money? Jesus had $$…and had a treasurer! What poor person has a treasurer? At the Last Supper when Judas left the room everyone just ASSUMED he was going to go give to the poor…why? because he regularily did so.

2) Even though Jesus gave to the poor this work this woman did was ok with Jesus. Notice that the disciples and in other places the religious leaders got mad at people for what they did with their $$ or expensive things! Jesus thought it was ok for her to use this expensive ointment in this was of showing love for Jesus rather than using it to give to the poor. We should give to the poor…but there will always be poor people…and it is ok to do these other things too..Jesus said.

3) The above scriptures say that those who give 100% of their time to preaching the gospel should “live of it”…or be paid from funds given to the church.

4) It says that an elder (a N.T. term also for Pastor) who does a good job should be worthy of DOUBLE HONOR>..inotherwords…it is ok for him to get more $$for doing a great job.!!!

5) I didn’t take the time to write the scriptures that talk about NOT preaching for filthy lucre..inotherwords…the motive should not be do it for $$. I won’t take the time for that as that is not what was addressed.

Are you God? Romans 8 says that ONLY the spirit of God can know a man’s heart. pastormoneybags do you put yourself in that catagory so as to be able to know the hearts of men and the motive of a man’s heart?

Mark 10:28 says, “THen Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee….(there are MANY who preach the gospel who have left everything to do so)..Jesus answered..there is not man that hath left house, or brethern, or sisters, or father…..for my sake and the gospel’s…but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters….with persecutions…and in the world to come eternal life.”

People leave family and home (my husband and I are some of those!) to preach the gospel..they leave it all with no motive for $$..only love for the people that they are going to! In time,God does bless them back with land and family and home…why? because God is a GOOD heavenly father (not a scrooge!!!)….

ARe you really searching for what the Bible really says…or do you know best and like to nuture your own ideas because they make you feel good?

I already stated that whatever the Osteens do with their money is their business.

I am here addressig your items #1 & #2 above only.

1) Yes, one Jesus began his public ministry, they lived from donations and charity from strangers and friends. Are you implying that they were rich and lived as such?

Mathew 8
20Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

2) How dare you compare a vacation trip to pouring oil on the Saviors head? Do you really think that the annointing of the Son of God, who would pay for the sins of the world, is equivalent to money spent on a vacation? The pouring of oil on Jesus was a sign of His coming death.

Matthew 26
6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9″This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”
10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. 13I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”

to Jamie

1)I am not implying ANYTHING! I am only saying what the Bible said. Many people think that Jesus had no money.

I am sure there were times that he didn’t! Why? He was tempted in all points as we are… anotherwords, he faced everything that we face.

The Apostle Paul said in Phil. 4: 11& 12 that he knew how to have plenty and also how to have lack…(look up in many different translations) and he learned how to be content, happy, full of faith and rejoicing no matter what situation he found himself. That is scriptural…we are to learn how to have a thankful, great attitude whether we are full and have lots or we don’t know where our next $$ is coming from…because we know that God will take care of us.

Jesus apparently didn’t wear rags. The soldiers gambled for it at the cross.

I am only saying what I am saying here. I am not applying it to the Osteens in any way. That would be up to them and ourselves to apply to our own lives.

Back to Jesus: a) he had a treasurer..he had a whole group of people who travelled with him and he was responsible to feed them, apparently they had a treasury. b) When Jesus travelled he did not have a place to put his head, as you mentioned in the scripture above..sometimes he stayed with friends such as Mary, Martha, and Lazarus. c)Jesus had a home in Capernaum…Mark 2:1 …look it up in various translations..Jesus’ was the house that the roof was taken off of and the paralyzed man was let down in…in Matt. 4:13 (if you study it out) it says that Jesus left Nazareth and came and dwelt in Capernaum…Jesus had some sort of a home that he travelled to and from in his journeys. But, yes, there were many times he didn’t know where to lay His head…as He would be sent of His father to go minister in many different places. I am not saying anything more than that.

The LOVE of money is the root of all evil. People who don’t have money can love money just as much or even more than people who have money.

2)My goodness! Where did I say or imply that Osteen’s vacation was like pouring oil on Jesus head?

My only point was that people critized how money was spent on Jesus too. And he was Jesus! Anotherwords, it is human nature to criticize especially about money. That’s all.

People critized Jesus for eating with prostitutes and tax collector’s!!! They critized Jesus for spending time with children. They criticized Jesus for healing on the Sabbath day..and they critize people who believe in healing today.

I make absolutely no comment about how the Osteens spend their money. That is their business.

Look at the promises that God made to Abraham and the Jews…that they as a people would be blessed above any other nation. They are! Study up on Jews and how much $$ they have! The disciples were Jews!…and fishermen. That was a business that could make some money…why do you think the disciples were AMAZED when Jesus told the rich young ruler how hard it would be for him that (trusts) in his riches to enter the kingdom of God. Because the disciples had some means. They owned boats and a business. The disciples had some $$ and homes…that they left to follow Jesus!

Point is…it is ok to have $$…but it is not ok for the $$ to have you! We are to help others with the $$ that God blesses us with.

I am thankful for the people who have come to Jesus through the ministry at Lakewood Church!

First of all Lisa, No where in the bible does it say Jesus owned a home! The bible says Jesus stayed at a home. It doesn’t say he owned it, rented it or anything else. It also doesn’t mention the quality of the home. Was it a mansion of a mud hut? Secondly, you want to drag old testament scriptures into this to prove your point. Paul wrote more than half the books of the new testamnet. He knows them better than anyone but God. Shouldn’t he have been a wealthy man if that’s what was intended? And why wasn’t Peter rich? He walked and talked with Jesus. Shouldn’t he have been rich off the gospel. He would deserve it more than preachers today. Yet Peter had no silver or gold. Peter couldn’t even pay his taxes!
Mathew 10:7-7 says to heal and preach for free!
You mentioned the disciples. All the disciples had jobs other than preaching. Paul worked as a tent maker until he died! He did not expect to earn a living preaching the gospel. Peter remained and fisherman. Hey guess what? Jesus Christ, himself, was a carpenter! When the bible speaks about a laborer is worthy of his hire, he’s talking about a job. Preaching the gospel is not suppose to be a job. It is a labor of love! You certainly want to defend these ccrooks out there. Maybe your husband or you are a preacher. You go to the Lakewood church because it is famous. You are not going there for the gospel.

One more thing please. All you have to do is match a churches practices up with bible teaching and you can see if they’re doing God’s will. For example: How many offerings does your church take up in a week? The bible says it should be only one and that’s on the first day of the week. 1 Cor. 16:1-2. Another is: Does your church add to the bible by way of creeds, oaths, etc… Does your church teach tithes? That’s one preachers love to harp on. That went out under the law!
Now God says to from the heart. He loves a cheerful giver. God doesn’t want a law that you must give! Thirdly, is your preacher mootching off his flock? The guy needs to get a job so he can support his family and then preach after work. FOR FREE! This is not a money making business in God’s eyes. You would see how many false prophets there are out there if they were made to live and preach by the bible.

LISA, Please read Paul’s condition 2 Cor. 11:27 and in Phil. 3:7-8. Then maybe you can tell me why he didn’t take advantage of the scrptures you listed. For eveything Paul went through, he should have owned the world! Especially since a laborer is worthy of their hire. Right? Wrong!
When the bible says to give and you shall receive, it is not talking about money at all! It is speaking about mercy. Mt 5:7 and Lk 14: 12-14. If you show mercy and give mercy you will obtain mercy (not money) from the father. Lk 6:38 is also talking about mercy. Not money!

Hey, I must have hurt somebody’s feelings. I’m sorry if the truth hurts but sometimes it does. Especially when you expose these money hungry preachers. Match any of them up agaisnt the word and they will fall like a house of cards!

to pastormoneybags:

You’ve already made up your mind about what you think about things. Think what you want to think and enjoy it!

Lisa, I have only quoted from the bible. I have not made up my mind as you say. I am only warning about the false teachings out there. You know there is a penalty for misleading people. Whether you know it or not, that can lead you to hell too.

The blessings in the Old Testament were physical - posession of the land.

The blessings in the New Testament are spiritual - sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Jaime, the preachers today will pull and twist every scripture in the bible to try and make you believe you should send them your money. They will tell you that God wants you to have wealth as they do. Isn’t it funny the only ones prospering are the preachers! And they will tell you not to even question them. This is why people MUST learn the bible. Like I said earlier, Apostle Paul and Peter were both poor. Could you imagine what they would think of these crooks today? Preaching for money? Today are the prosperity preachers. And the sad part of it is, people love them. People flock to be part of their congregation!!!

This is unfortunately very true. If you question, you will be covertly disciplined and ignored and nothing changes. If you ask questions, your faith is considered weak. Religious intimidation and manipulation is alive and well, especially in the lives of trusting, unsuspecting people.

Cheryl, you a so right. Somehow these preachers today have turned religion into how much you give, and how big there organizations are. Apostle Paul or Peter couldn’t even draw a crowd today to preach to. Money has become the measuring stick for how religious a person is. Though the bible tells these preachers to preach for free you won’t ever hear that preached. These preachers today have a pretty cushy lifestyle. Preach 2 days a week and play gold 5 days a week!
My grandmother gave thousands of dollars to Oral Roberts when Oral just started out. She gave until she died pennyless at 82 years old. Do you think these preachers know or even care where the money comes from? They tell you to give until it hurts! All of them will tell you to give your last dollar. Even if you don’t have it to give? Plant a vow anyways! Yet year after year there is a new preacher on the block. When will people learn? How many times must a person get burned before they learn? I shake my head everytime I see a new preacher on tv begging for your hard earned money. Like I said though, people are proud to say they belong to that massive congregation! They are proud that the church was built on funds that the poor and elderly couln’t afford to give! They are proud to say they give to these multi million dollar preachers! What has happened to the true gospel that welcomes the poor, the needy the afflicted, the widows? The church should be supporting them not the other way around!

Luke 14:12-14 says ‘Then said he also to him that bade him. When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbors, lest also they bid thee again, and recompence be made thee.
But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And thou shalt be blessed; for the cannot recompense thee: For thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

The preachers today will say if you are poor or maimed or afflicted in some way, it is because you haven’t sent in enough money to them. They don’t want to take care of the poor. They want to scoff at them!

pastormoneybags:

You have all the answers about how things should be done. Why don’t you start your own church or ministry? Stop telling others the way to do it. Show them how to do it. Set the example and do it yourself.

All you do is complain on this blog about what others are doing wrong. Take that time and do something the way it should be done. Go prove them wrong. Win more people and reach more people for Jesus than these money hungry preachers.

Do it for free and show them how they could reach people the right way!

They say that Jesus wants pastors to drive BMWs!

I do run a soup kitchen in the worst parts of town. The food is donated by the local grocers. My family and other volunteers do it for free. Half the volunteers aren’t even church goers. They just have a heart! We think it is better to give than to receive. We would NEVER, EVER ask these poors souls to reach into their pockets and give us their last dollar! We would never lie to these poor souls and tell them if they give to us, they will be rich too! When you look face to face at a family that is struggling and you can offer them some clothes and food, that is priceless!
Cheryl is right! These pastors will say God wants them to be rich and drive a BMW or Lexus. What God really wants is for us to care for one another.
Churches are not meant to entertain peaople! Churches are meant to be like a close knit family.
Churches should care for the poor. Churches should visit the elderly and the widows. These preachers on tv today would think you are crazy if you told them that. I called Ernest Angeley’s office one day and asked him if he would go to the hospital with me to visit the sick. I also asked him if you could heal a few people while we’re there. Angely is a faith healer on tv. He told me NO!

These preachers on tv would steal your kid’s piggybank. That’s how greedy they are. I hear Pat Robertson say that he expects God to give him wealth! I’ve heard Mike Murdock say you need to give in order to receive money. I’ve heard all of these preachers preach that you must empty out your wallet in order to receive God’s blessings. And the church gets bigger. And the preacher starts driving a nicer car. And the preacher takes nicer vacations. And the preacher has a huge home. Then they will look at you and say SEE?
See how God is blessing me because of how you are giving? They will tell you if you want the same stuff, you must give even more to me!
How can anybody support such nonsense? I don’t have all the answers but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what is going on.

UH-OH! You had better take cover. I’m out of this conversation now that you have mentioned you-know-who. My husband NEEDS his job. This family can’t survive anymore discipline.
This is my last word on the subject - It is a very peculiar thing when a pastor’s smiling, obedient wife has a place behind the pulpit and uses it to gush over her husband and tell other adults how much she loves loves loves them. It is a very peculiar thing when the gospel is maligned by pastors.

Folks, can you see who Lisa is attacking? She supports these preachers that beg for your money!
Lisa is a blind sheep following a blind shepard!
Just because a church is massive in size, and the preacher is a multi-millionaire, doesn’t mean they are being blessed by God. When these fools take money from the poor and needy, just to line their pockets, they are crooks! That multi-million dollar waterfalls in the Lakewood church could feed and clothed so many people. But, the greed and the flashyness will win out. Yet this is what Lisa and millions of others think God would be proud of.

Cheryl, I’m sorry if I stepped on your toes. I have been in church many years. I know what goes on. I know a preacher who will only preach Sundays and wednesdays because he is on 2 softball teams. He sends members of his congregation to visit church members in the hospital. He plays ball every Saturday. He practices every Tues. and Thursday. The rest of the time is his time off. The church bought his house and his car and pays him a pretty nice salary too. Most of the time he has a guest speaker.
I hate to lose your opinions on here Cheryl. I need some feedback!

Lisa should remain faithful. Lisa should guard her heart and walk humbly and show mercy.

Just curious Cheryl, who’s name did I mention that set you off? I know both of them well.

Its like this…I gotta be going now.

Pastormoneybags:

You are a fool! DO you know why? Because you said things above that I thought and critized me for it. You wrote on this Blog and assumed things that are my values. And you are WRONG!!!! I DO NOT think the things above that you said about me! You have a vicious horrible critical mouth!

I have endeavored to be polite. But when you attack my character and say things that I think….THAT I DO NOT THINK….you have just gone too far!

I went FOR FREE during DECEMBER to visit children in various hospitals who are paralyzed and in critical condition and took 30 other people, including 18 children, with me FROM OUR CHURCH to these places.

IT COST ME MY OWN MONEY to fly down to South America this past summer to various cities in Peru with 15 other people from our church to go into the villages (VERY POOR THERE!!!) to minister to those people. WE DIDN”T TAKE ANY MONEY FROM THOSE PEOPLE EITHER. We brought them things.

We, personally, go into Los Angeles and take teens there to cook for very poor people and cook food and such for them.

WE help airlift toys to children on Indian Reservations each December. We help gather toys and then, through a man we know, he takes them on his plane to them.

And these are just A FEW THINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So your assessment of me is VERY, VERY WRONG!!!! Your characterization of my values is judgmental. You talk about what you know nothing about! You made a generalized statement about me condemening, mocking, and critizing me! YOu don’t even know my whole story or where I am coming from.

You don’t know the whole story about anyone! None of us does. That is my point.

You bundle up every preacher, WHO IS NOT YOU, into one lump and assume one thing about them.

You put me into the catagory of money hungry preachers because I challenged you. I didn’t agree with you.

You are right. What you think is right and everyone else is wrong.

Many things(CERTAINLY NOT ALL), that you theorize about..ha ha I do agree with.

I don’t agree with everything that I see. But it is not my business. They are not my servant, they are God’s servant. If I don’t agree. I don’t give my money to them or go to their church. PERIOD!!!!

Those that do profess Jesus as their Savior…the Bible clearly says to PRAY FOR THEM! AND NOT TO TALK AGAINST THEM!!! OTherwise you’ll be judged for judging. Let the board or congregation of those ministries deal with them. That is their responsibity.

I just suppose that the very thing that you did to me you do to others! I don’t appreciate, at all, what you said about what I thought…that I do not think.

pastormoneybags and Lisa Comb

Tone down the mutual character analysis.
Discuss the issues not each others character.

Squawkbox Moderator

Squawkbox:

I endeavored to discuss the issues. When I was told what I thought and criticized for it…the analysis being completely wrong…I spoke up.

No concerns. This is my last post.

Lisa

Lisa, I am very proud that you would visit the poor and the sick. That is what we are suppose to do as christians. When you give to the poor, it is like giving to God. You used your own money you said. The preachers use YOUR money too! And mine! They obviously don’t use theirs. I critisized you for supporting these fat cat preachers yes. These preachers are completely opposite of biblical teachings. What you did was most certainly christian behavior. This is what God expects from us. I do get sick of the flamboyant lifestyles these preachers live. Look at Swaggart. This man is still on the air raking in money! Look at Baker. He too is still preaching for a living! Look at Popoff. He was caught in a fraudulent scam. Yet he is still supported by blind followers. Look at Humbard that built a tower to NOTHING! Millions of dollars wasted. Given by good honest people to help his ministry win souls for Christ. You better beleive I’m sick of these false prophets. I will face any of these guys down. They cannot hold up to the bible. As a Christian, you cannot support their behavior!

How many people send in their donations thinking they are helping Joel Olsteen win souls through his ministry? Do you think they would give if they knew it was going to help build a multi-million dollar waterfalls?

1 Timothy 6:8-9 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. Does any of this apply to the wealthy preachers out there? Have you ever in your entire life heard a prosperity preacher preach this? They tell you the complete opposite! They tell you NOT to be content with what you’ve got. They tell you to plant a financial seed so you can get wealth! And noone thinks they should be checked and scolded for this sort of teachings? The bible tells us to judge them by the fruits they bear. Someone tell me where I’m wrong here.

If everyone will notice, whenever you mess with the wealthy preachers, you make alot of enemies!
Noone wants to hear the truth. Everyone wants to live in the make believe world these rich preachers have made up. You might as well throw the bible away!

Lisa Comb
#280
I understand. I also noticed the “character analysis” occuring on both sides and had to ask both parties to return the conversation to the issues.

Lisa, I sincerly apolgize for offending you. I get so angry when I see preaching twisting the bible. If they preached the true word, they would never have these million dollar mansions and such.
Sorry for taking it out on you sister.

Lisa, I sencerly apologize for offending you. I get very angry at these big time preachers that seem to think the bible doesn’t apply to them.

Would everyone please read 1 Cor. 9:17-18 and see what Paul says about profiting off the gospel.
He says here “for If I do this thing willingly, I have a reward. But if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.” Is any of this sinking in? Do you guys still think these modivational speakers are doing God’s work?
They are completely opposite of the bible! Which do you choose to follow?

Folks, do you know why these preachers are so successful? It’s found in your bibles. 2 Timothy chapter 4 vs.3 on. I’ll paraphrase here but you can look it up. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctorine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

See there is nothing new about these preachers. God saw it coming when the bible was being written. He says people will search out these motivational speakers that make them feel all warm and cozy. And these preachers know it too! This is how they can motivate you to give. This is also why hell is never mentioned anymore. That is an awful word that people do not want to talk about or hear about. Just give me the feel good stuff!

Hey, I already know you guys look at me as the bad guy here. Everything I’ve told you is backed up by the word of God. So don’t hate the messenger. I didn’t write the bible.

Am I getting on anyone’s nerves yet?

When you learn what the bible really says, you look at these preachers in a different light. Hugh?

And quietly you people will return to your cathedrals where the pastor is living like a king.
And you all know they are preaching things contrary to the bible and yet you will still support them. That means your heart is no better than theirs is. Go to your church and raise your hands high so you can be seen by me! Let the world know you belong to this massive congregation.
Let the world see you pull into the parking lot. Do they have valet parking? No? Well it’s coming I’m sure.

Lisa and Cheryl, keep supporting these preachers.

I want to know how do you think you’re going to spot a false prophet? Do you think they are going to wear a shirt that says “False prophet”? You can only do it by using the bible! The bible clearly warns that false prophets would be around. Well? Where are they then? You guys believe every doctorine that comes along. Where are the false teachers and prophets?

See? This is exactly what happens when you must face the truth according to the bible. You guys all fell like a house of cards. You are believeing in things that aren’t biblical. YOu don’t want to hear the truth. You are happier believeing this stuff. When you are challenged with the bible, you must cave in. This is why you do not respond. You are afraid that you are on the wrong path and you don’t want to know it. You are feeling comfortable where you are so you close your eyes to the truth.

pastormoneybags Hello I’m kinda new and have not read all that has been said concerning the pastor and the giving of money for his ministry. But the gist of the discussion seems to be that pastors (as a whole?) get too much money.
I think you may have a valid point there; some with big churches do seem to get too much money. I never had a big church so I really am not in a good position to judge them. I will say that I bet they have a lot of stress,tension, anxiety because of the nagging and fussing. Typical of people…even in churches. Often it all is laid on the head of the pastor.
You seem to believe that a pastor should not receive any money for his services. If I misunderstand you about that, I’m sorry. I just seemed to get that impression from some of the things you have said.
Let’s begin with one passage. Okay? Just one right now. It is something Paul said in 1Cor chapter 9. He talks about the priests in the OT sharing what the Israelites gave to the Temple and temple worship. That is in verse 13. Now in verse 14 here is what he says,”Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel” To me that is quite clear.
Yes, Pastor Paul does say he doesn’t accept gifts for preaching…..Many reasons for that I’m sure: his sense of indedendence and or his trade (of tent making …or perhaps the fact that he was more of a missionary than he was a pastor.
But the point I am making is that GOD ORDAINED the ones who preach the gospel SHOULD live of the gospel…..just as the priests in the temple (verse 13) accepted gifts from the people.
If it was ORDAINED of God than it is right for preachers to receive financial aid from the congregations.
I had small churches which meant less responsibility and therefore less salary. But let’s be realistic a moment. Let’s say that a church claas me and offers me $700 a week to give all my time to the church as pastor. I’d have a wife and 4 children. Should I accept what they WANT to give me? Well I’d say 100% of the men I used to know would have ands they were men who loved Christ.
Would you have accepted it?

Elder, yes, in the new testament there were churches that supported preachers. As a matter of fact when Christ told the descipled to go out and preach, he told them to take nothing with them. And when they found someone that could let them stay with them, do so. But, what Paul says in 1 Cor. 9:17-18 That he makes the gospel without charge because he knew he could abuse his power and milk people for all they had! Brother, what you are seeing on TV are preachers doing exactly that! They are abusing their powers and milking their congregation and those in tv land. How can you compare a preacher making 700.00 a week to a tv preacher buying gold fixture for his bathroom!
And when a congregation pays a local pastor, they know where that money is going. When these liars on tv say they need money to reach across the world to win sould for God, and then they buy a multi-million dollar waterfall, or a thousand dollar toilet, That is abusing their power! If God called me to preach, I would be scared to death to fleece widows, the elderly, the afflicted.
These people do not care where that all mighty dollar comes from. I do not want to knock the local pastor that is really giving to his church. There are alot of good honest preachers out there. But there is alot of flase prophets out there too. How do know the difference? By the bible. And the bible tells us there are false prophets here. Which ones are they?

One more thing here. If you are making 700.00 a week, you are not even in the same ball park as these million dollar preachers! And why not? The preacher should be uplifted. You are preaching the same gospel as they are. They are just marketing it better! They have made the gospel a product. They put a better label on it to make it flashy. They have bottled and are selling it. Which the bible says is wrong. Now if you want to support this type of behavior, you are wrong too.

I am 75 and my last church was in 1993. I used to pastor a lot.
It seems I misunderstood you. Sorry about that.
I too don’t like a lot of the Gimme gimme stuff.
What amuses me is when they tell you to plant a seed..” Do it to glory God and make you wealthy “they say. The humor of that is they tell you to send the seed to them. It strikes me that according to them God will do absolutely nothing with that seed if it not sent to them…Even though there are hundreds of thousands of other preachers preaching the same gospel.
I do see what would be wonderful if it were done concerning the tv money preachers. If they preached the gospel, tell people their church would honor what gifts people would give and that 99% of what is sent in would go to missionaries, soup kitchens, Children’s Homes, Orphanages,new wings for hospitals, help people get employment, help people with fatal diseases get good care in hospitals, work with the Salvation Army and Christians in Action as to food and clothing…… AND then DO EVERYTHING IT TELLS THE tv audience it will do! If the church is on a major network people all around the world would hear that message and give. The 1% thast’s left should be enough to pay the pastor’s salary and utilities of the church. Enough for the entire administration.
To me that would be great. Christians need to pray that God would rasise up a church like that. A mega-church.
A dream? Maybe….But then if it were of God it would be a REALITY. Who knows …if a church like that came forth and fulfilled it’s initial mandate…..I have a feeling people would see it and talk and pray and pass the word and eventually the other churches….mega money churches…would see the example and come forth also…
Many big money pastors would buck the trend probably…but with a lot of rumble and rumor and chatting about the RECEIVING AND GIVING church these pastors may either have to go with the tide or resign and let another preacher who loves God and people more then themselves take over.

“With God all things are possible” (Mat.10:26)

Elder, you said it better than I did! Maybe I come across too harsh sometimes but you hit the nail on the head. The sad part is, these multi-million dollar preachers are getting all the followers. Look at the size of their churches. People love these guys. When they come on tv in the 1,000 dollar suits, and have a multi million dollar home, and drive a BMW people believe them!
People listen to every word they say. Just as the bible says “And they shall turn their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.”
What the bible says and what these preachers say, are 2 different things. And people are following the preachers. Like I said before. God told us we would have false prophets; that if possible could fool the very elect. Those false prophets would have to be very popular. So where are they?
There are many blind that are following the blind and they don’t even know it. My grandparents went broke sending these preachers their money. They
left nothing for their children.

Pastormonrybags…..Thanks for your comments. Always interesting. By the way my first name is Elder. What is yours?
I believe we have as many proportionately false prophets today ……maybe even more than they had in Jesus’day.
As for Joel Osteen, I hope he isn’t one. Much of what he praeches is similiar to what us guys in the Army heard in “Character Guidance”. The Chaplain gave a lot of ideal ways to live, but of course no Bible or Gospel; that was only during Chapel.
The job of Osteen is not to give character guidance but to tell people how to be a Christian. With such a vast attendance I would think many non-Christians would be present as well as Christians.
Of course a preacher should preach how Christians should live but that should not be the emphasis.
It bothers me too that he does not use the word sin. It makes people go away he said . I wonder if Osteen has read what Jesus said:” I came not to call the righteous but SINNERS to repentance” (Mat.9:13) And he wishes not to mention sin?.He claims to love Jesus and to be a Christian so what am I to think? It is for me to love him and pray for him and hope he changes his beliefs about that. Bless his young heart Pastor,…Larry King made him squirm a bit when he was asked about John 14:6….whether or not only people who have accepted Christ will go to Heaven…….Osteen answered what any frightened preacher would say who is aware that millions of people are listening and watching…. Osteen said in so mnay words….”It’s not for me to know who’s going to Heaven or Hell” When he came back to his church he had to apologize to his church for giving that answer. LOL……..What Osteen said was actually true but it didn’t answer King’s question. But wait Pastor….if the youg man apologized then maybe he can and eventually change what he things about other things. Let’s be prayerful and hopeful the young fellow changes and preaches what his Dad preached. His Dad John preached Jesus ….well….yes John Osteen also colored many of his sermons with charismatic ideas . But at least he majored in JESUS.
You know Pastor…….I feel God is still telling the people of God what He wants them to do….even today….Our Land could be very much healed of false prophets and money grabbing pastors if Christians would pray (we can’t pray too much) and obey what Gosd says in 2Chr.7:14 “If my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways THEN will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and will heal their land”

Elder, My first name is Randall. Joel Olsteen is like the other leaders of these mega churches. They don’t want to offend anyone by preaching there is a hell. Many of the preachers today draw such a great crowed because they give them all the hype and pep and loud music and happy talk. They are motivational speakers. I’ve been in these services where you feel more like you’re at an Amway convention than at a church. I was at a service one night where they took up 6 offerings.

I enjoy your comments. I saw Olsteen on Larry King as well. What a wonderful opportunity for Olsteen to tell the world, there is punishment for sins. And it’s called hell.

Romans 9:31-33 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Well, I don’t think Olsteen is ashamed of being a follower of Christ. I do think that he doesn’t want to “rock the boat” so to speak, when he is speaking to his congregation. These motivational speakers have it down to a science. They will hype you up and tell you that you can do anything. They will convence you that you have powers and can conquer the world. They will tell you, by giving them your money, you too can be rich! When you are sitting in that service, you will be sure that you could walk on water! Then you give them your bill money. You make promises to them that you can’t keep. You plant seeds of finance that you cannot afford. And these preachers know it and they plan it this way. But instead of telling you to give as you have prospered, they tell you to give as you would want to prosper. This is completely opposite of biblical teachings. This type of activity by these preachers has hurt alot of families financially.

Wow! Just checked in, and you are still goin at it over Victoria’s wet seat? This has evolved into an interesting discussion.

Did I tell you the FAA called me, they are doing an investigation to verify her story versus the flight attendants? Sounds like two entirely different versions. The flight attendant union is considering charges against the lady.

My 2cents here. I don’t get the feel good religion, it was not what we were raised on. Not saying it is a bad thing if the folks are getting what they want to pay for. I like pretty people and nice music like the next blogger. Seems to me like seducing the wallets right out of the pockets of people desperate for someone to like them, we all want that, is like going to Coushatta for the weekend for these old folks. They spend the money, and they must be getting what they expect. OK. But call it what it is, business (not religion).

Thanks, keep up the good work.

Preston, perfect example! This is business for sure. And you made a perfect comment on how the wallet is being seduced right out of the pockets of the lonely, the widows, the elderly, the afflicted and the desparte. These preachers could care less where that money comes from. As a matter of fact, they tell you “Even if you haven’t got it, still plant a seed of faith”. I know a preacher in florida that has a fairly small church.
He told me with his own mouth that his congregation gives 65 thousand dollars a month in tithes and offerings. And is wife is the treasuerer and bookkeeper.

I could care less about the man’s life style, how big his church is, how much money is tithed I just don’t concern myself with those things. I am concerned about what the real attraction is to Lakewood Church. Is it Jesus or the Dr. Phil theology? I do not have any problems with a church discussing tithing on occasion, but does it not follow if Jesus is the reason for attendance, then a person would naturally want to contribute to keep the doors open and spread the gospel? Then it becomes a work of the Holy Spirit through grace and mercy and not the law which Jesus fulfilled on the cross.

I make no apology, I have listened to Joel Osteen’s sermons and the emphasis is a self help message and not Grace and Mercy. I have not heard a strong message emphasizing a personal relationship with the savior and why that is most important. Without that the rest of the message is purely worthless. When one looks at the Lakewood and Joel Osteen’s web page the books, videos and audio products all are messages right off the self help shelf of the book stores. If I misjudge Joel Osteen’s message then I will surely apologize.

In my post #94 I said this:
————————–
Yes and I would ask you a question.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
——————————–

That pretty much sums up my concerns about Joel Osteens message. I am not saying that he is a bad man, I just question his message.

There were twelve Apostles and each one had their own style of preaching. I would guess that John the Beloved preached in a softer tone than say Paul or Peter but the message they taught was focused on and centered around Jesus. The focus was on Jesus. They taught about our personal responsibility with the focus on Jesus.

I’d rather be a “poor” man with Jesus than a rich man without him.

Well, you are correct that there were 12 Apostles.
The thing is, they all had outside jobs other than preaching. And we should all be concerned about the money these preachers are making off religion.
What product do these guys sell to get rich? The gospel! And the bible tells us not to do that. The bible tells us to preach the gospel for free. It says we received it for free and we should give it for free. I agree with what you’ve said though.
The bible warned us about false prophets. Well where are they? If these preachers on tv aren’t what God warned us about, then where are they?
There are so many things that I hear coming from these preachers that aren’t biblical I just wonder how people listen to them.

How people listen to them?

Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Nuff said by me.

That is exactly what is happening. People will close their eyes to the truth so they can feel good about following these preachers.

I think the operative part of the quote is

“after their own lusts.”

I hear the more more more doctrine so much I am sickened. I wonder what would be the reaction if a sermon was preached on
1 Timothy 6:7-9 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

I was taught early on in life to be content with what I have and God would add all good things to me. He would equip me with what I need and a few wants too. My life story has shown me that when I get into the more more more mode I am in big trouble.

And I do get flamed real bad when I talk about those things, but hey I don’t care. It ain’t no one on this earth I have to answer to when I meet my maker. I have enough to answer for as it is.

That’s right squawkbox. What the bible says is meaningless to these preachers today. These tv preachers are all about the money. And they make it too. The public loves to be associated with these big time preachers. Look at the audience these guys gather. If Christ was preaching on one side of town and Olsteen on the other who do you think would draw the larger crowd? The public today don’t want the truth. They want to be lifted up and puffed up. And these preachers do just that. They lift them high so they can get to their wallets.

Elder, are you still out there brother? I haven’t heard anything from you lately. I like when you post your comments.

pastormoneybags

All that is going on was prophesied. I believe our job is too speak the truth and then move on to the next person. Time is short, the fields are ripe and the workers are few.

I too believe we need to expose these frauds for what they really are.

Hey! Let’s all get together and bomb those rich preachers - they are all EVIL and MUST be stopped!

cheryl
Let me be perfectly clear (again). I could care less how much money a preacher has, receives or whatever. I could care less about their life style as based on the financial means. I never said “they” were evil either.

My concern is what the attraction is to their churches. What is the message being taught. So far no one has told me that the person in question has a strong message of redemption based on the work of Jesus. No one has refuted the evidence that I have sited over and over again that the focus in that church is a prosperity message and not Jesus.

Lest I get flamed, yes I have been to Lakewood, yes I have heard the sermons, yes I have visited the web sites and I see more Joel than Jesus. I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong in my perception.

Cheryl, If these rich preachers are not the false prophets christ warned us about, then where are they? These rich preachers preach everything contrary to the bible. They preach that you should give as you would want to prosper. The bible says to give as you have prospered. Not a penny more! 1 Cor. 16:2. You are one of the blind sheep following the blind prophets. There is absolutely nothing right about making millions of dollars of religion. These preachers have bottled it and are selling it like any other product out there. The bible says to spread the word; Not sell the word!

I’m just waiting for one of you guys to pull a scripture out of the old testament. This is a prime example of how the rich preachers and their blind followers justify their actions. They completely ignore the new testament.

Eric

Typing in all Caps will get your comment deleted everytime.
Name calling will get your comment deleted also
The Moderator

Well I guess Peter and Apostle Paul must not have been very rightous then. They were both poor as dirt. Just where do you get your scriptures that preachers should be rich in money? You are brainwashed by these motivational speakers. Eric, do you realize that all the disciples worked other jobs while they were preaching? None of them intended to make a living off the gospel. And the bible tells us to judge these guys. You need to READ the bible and not rely on what you’re being told. I’m not wrapped too tight?

No Flaming

The Moderator

Read 2 Corinthians 11:7 This is Apostle Paul talking. He says this “Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of GOD freely?” Now, for those of you that don’t know this, Apostle Paul wrote over half the books of the new testament! Does this sound like he was meant to be rich off the gospel?

#322
You best read the verse in the context it was presented. The very next verse says that Paul received funds from other churches so that he could preach in Corinth.
11:8 “I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.”
The verse you quote does not support your argument.
Paul was making a point to the Corinthians because they thought him inferior so he abstained from taking their support.

When he speaks of robbing other churches he is referring to taking more than the normal amount of support so that he may minister to the Corinthians without pay from them.

I would also submit that the Bible says that the laborer should be paid for his labor. Is not a pastor a laborer? At different times through Pauls life and his ministry he was rich and poor. I believe Paul, at times, was given great amounts of funds to facilitate his work. My evidence is the amount he traveled and other little hints.

You argue a moral argument about pastors being rich “off the gospel.” I think, and I mean this respectfully, you worry to much about how much a preacher makes. God’s message can get through the smallest of cracks in a misguided message. Arguing a preachers lifestyle or riches only alienates their followers, you are just making them angry. You are attacking “their” pastor the man. I prefer to couch my argument over the content being preached. Then you remove the argument from the person to the message.

I believe the more effective argument still is what is the attraction to the church? I would rather spend my energies talking about why Jesus should be preached rather than arguing whether preachers should get rich off the gospel or not. In the long run that just does not matter.

Squawkbox, My point was, and is, that Apostle Paul was more worthy of all of the preachers in that day to collect money for his mission. He was taught directly from God! He did not learn from man or studying. This is why I point out Paul and Peter both. There were “preachers” in that day collecting money to preach. I noticed you skipped over 2 Corinthians 11:9 “And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.” Paul wanted to make sure he did not take from the people he was preaching to.

2 Corinthians 11:13 says this “For such are false prophets deceitful workers transforming themselves into the apostles of christ.”
Now I ask you. Where can we find such false prophets? Unless we judge them by the bible they are teaching from, how can we spot them? Yes I worry about the money they are making and the way they are making it. You cannot follow a false prophets just because some of what he says is the truth.

Pastormoneybags
You said
“Does this sound like he was meant to be rich off the gospel?”

———————————
That is not what Paul said. Read it in context.

Look if you want to go heretic hunting have a good time. Your argument is not with me.

squawkbox, I am not argueing with you at all. The point is Apostle Paul could have, if he wanted to, charged people to preach to them. He could have taken up offerings and collected money. Paul was worth it! But Paul didn’t even want the church to take up an offering in his presence. And if Paul was meant to get rich off the gospel, he would have taken all the money he could have and said it was from God fearing christians. Maybe I didn’t bring my point across as well as I wanted to.
Paul relied on his brethren and his work to supply his needs. That helped Him with his bear necessities. Some of the time he went hungry and thirsty in weariness and pain to preach the gospel. 2 Cor.11:27.

And my point is don’t cut the ear off the Roman.

I don’t get it. Please explain.

Squawkbox, You are right about this. God’s word will never change and it will never be less effective no matter who presence it. Anyone can preach God’s word and it will mean the same and have the same power. The problem is this. These “big time evangelist” sprinkle a little of God’s word mixed in with their made up beliefs.
That is the dangerous part about following these guys ( and gals). They hook you in by reading from the bible, which is God’s written word. But then they follow that up by their own interpretation of what the passage meant. They will twist it and turn it until is says “They should get rich off the gospel.” Whenever these preachers leave the bible and use their own words, this is when they get you. And if you follow that type of teachings, you’re gonna be lost.

pastormoneybags
#328
Matthew 26
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear.

Squawkbox, yes I do remember reading that. I was wondering if that was what you were referring to.

Having been there and done that on both sides I thought it fitting. That is precisely why I couch my discussion the way I do. In our zeal we can and very often do more harm than good.

Squawkbox, can’t you say the same thing about these tele-evangelist? I think they do more harm than good too. They will take money from anyone and everyone. And their taking doesn’t only end with money. They will take your deed to your house, the inheritance you are planning on leaving for your children, and the gold caps on your teeth. I knew a preacher that sweet talked an 83 year old women into giving him her late husbands Gold banjo. Her kids had to take this greedy preacher to court to get it back. This is no difference in the tele-evangelist that appeal to the poor to give their last dollar and call it “planting a seed of finance.” I cannot accept the fact that, just because some of what these preachers say is good, we should follow them as though they are God’s messengers. You cannot put vinegar and water together. It doesn’t work!

pastormoneybags
I could care less about attacking the character, motives or methodology of the individuals in question. As I pointed out, when this is done you stand to “cut off the ears of the Romans.” Look at the thread. At no point can you get past that to the bottomline question of the message. “They” do not want to hear what you have to say when “they” since an attack on their “high priest.” A greater door is opened when the argument focuses on Jesus. THAT IS where we want to get to is it not?

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

BTW one can preach the gospel and be as “harmless as doves.”

Galatians 6
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

And with that I am out of here. God speed in your pursuits.

Squawkbox, Mt. 7:15,16,17 tells us to beware of flase prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thornes, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

So you are correct that our focus should be on Jesus Christ. The bible also warns us to focus on false prophets too. Lest we fall into a snare!

If you will notice the scriptures I gave you, both the good and the evil tree bringeth forth fruit; You must know which fruit is good and which is evil.

Mt. 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth it not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

People aren’t responding because they simply do not want to hear the truth! These mega churches makes them feel good. This is why they will ignore the truth so they can follow after what makes them feel good. Believe me, people are reading this. They are ashamed to respond because they realize what they are doing is wrong!

Mt.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The lack of response is evident that people will close their eyes and plug their ears to the truth so they can feel good about giving money to these multi-million dollar preachers. These people want to be at a mega church because it gives them a status symbol. It has nothing at all to do with religion. They like to push their chest out and say “I go to that popular church on T.V.” How about you? Oh, you go to that small church on the corner (as they say with a chuckle).

pastormoneybags,…

give us a break. It appears that you have some issues you need to take care of. It may be a good idea for you to attend a church period. Small or large,..on tv, read a book about being a nice person,..anything. It’s like you just cant get over this. Is it really that big of a deal?

Eric, Is where you spend eternity, when you die, that big of a deal? You can’t play church and make it to heaven. You know Cain did Almost what God told him to do. He wordhipped God. He offered a sacrifice, but not the kind of sacrifice God required, & God rejected his offering. Moses did Almost what God told him to do. God told Moses to speak to the rock; instead Moses smote the rock. Moses could not lead the children of Israel into the land God gave them. King Agrippa, before of whom Paul was on trial, was moved to ALMOST obey the gospel. King Afrippa said ” I am Almost persuaded to become a christian. Acts:26:28

You can be sincere and still be wrong brother. You can attend these entertainment halls where the music is loud and the preacher gets you psyched up.
You can go and have a wonderful time. You can go so all your friends can know that you go to that big church with the movie staar status preacher speaks. You can excuse some of the misleading teachings of the bible so you can enjoy yourself.
The bottom line is, you will have to answer for your actions.

Don’t Almost be right! Study the word and when a preacher teaches something that’s NOT in the bible,
get out of there! Don’t get sucked in by the glitter and the music. You have too much to lose.

Christ warned of deceivers! Notice warnings(Mt. 7:15, 2Peter 2:1-2, 1Jn. 4:1, 2Corinthians 11:12-15). Yes there have been many men and women claiming to be inspired prophets speaking for God throughout the ages. They are nothing but deceivers!

And yet you blind followers will ignore the word of God, and put your own soul in jeopardy, just to follow after these false prophets!

A blind follower can’t see the difference between spending 40 million dollars on a waterfall and helping the homeless, the widows, and the afflicted! Anyone that has an ounce of religion would NEVER, EVER support such nonsense! The waste of money is unbelieveable to these preachers. And like blind little soldiers you guys follow them.

There are times when the people in the church should “feel good” in that being Christians they have a lot to feel good about. It’s a real good feeling knowing that when you die Someone , namely Jesus Christ will take care of you from then on. He will in life and after death. That is what He said He would do to those who accepted Him. (John3:14-18 and Chap 14:1-6)
But at the same time there are times Christians should NOT feel good. When they sin and sit under Bible preaching they NEED to feel bad….until they ask forgiveness and are cleansed.. 1John1:7-10
If a Christian is sitting there listening to a “feel goody goody ” sermon he likes to hear that..But we are not to go to church to get pats on the shoulder (our wives and kids are to do that SMILES) Rather church is to hear the Word of God and have it applied to whomsoever it applies to. Directly it applies to Christians but often it’s message about those who are not Christians. That is Heaven and Hell, people’s responsibility to God in Christ, to the Redemptive Plan of God for the world.
The pastor has a crucial obligation…..Give God’s Goodnews in Christ and God’s Displeasure upon those who don’t accept it. Angels rejoice when only ONE accepts Christ (Luke 15:10)

Elder, you are so right. The good feelings we get from being a christian comes from knowing we have forgivness for our sins. We don’t need material wealth to make us happy. Heaven rejoices when a person gives their heart to God. I wonder how many angels rejoice knowing 40 million dollars of God’s money is wasted on building a waterfall?

How many angels in heaven rejoice whenever they see MILIIONS of God’s money wasted on such things as Gold toilet fixtures, waterfalls, $10,000 a night Hotel suites, lavish vacations, extremely expensive jewelry, Multi-million dollars homes, and rare furs! Does any of this sound like a preacher that is in the business to lift God’s name or to line his pockets? This is exactly how these tele-evangelist are living! People God warned us time and again to beware of false prophets. If these aren’t who God was speaking about, then who else could it possibly be? I would be scared to death to take money from people to do God’s work and then squander it away on my lavish lifestyle! And I would be equally afraid to support these thieves! God has given us perfect instructions to stay away from these types of false teachers. And still these are the ones that get the biggest attendences and the largest congregations. Do you think that’s a coincedence?
Do you think God knew exactly what he was talking about whenever he said people would search these types of false prophets out so they good get their itching ears pleased? People you had better wake up and read the bible and stop following after every type of doctrine that comes along just because it makes you feel good.

It is pathetic Pastor. You wonder which is worse….the false doctrine or the extravagant spending. No wait! Their lifestyle is part of their doctrine. For a Christian to be rich is to be a Christian who has great faith. To be rich Pastor is to have all those great thngs you mentioned . That is their answer to you and me.oooops! Wait again. They don’t even HAVE to answer us..They condescend to us. Why should they be concerned about what we think of their lifestyle? The money keeps rolling in. They are scratching those “itching ears”.
There is nothing we can do about it really. It seems the more we raise Cain about it the more we look like poor penniless preachers who never made it “big” and like to take our rage out on thoses wonderful caring and compassionate Pastors.
But as I said before GOD can and with enough prayer from His people, CHANGE things. Yes the people that attend could sometimes be persuaded to stop supporting the rich pastors but I’m afraid it won’t stop the flow….People keep pouring in.
Only God can stop such Pastors.

Elder, these rich preachers with their outrages lifestyles has become what their followers look for in a preacher today! I shake my head in unbelief everytime I see a new money begging preacher on T.V. The gospel has become so twisted up and scrambled by these con artist preachers. If you do not read the word and know it, as the bible says, the very elect could be fooled. It is a shame that the gospel has been made into a product that these guys are selling for top dollar!
And the blind followers are buying it up! If I drove a gold Cadilac, and lived in a million dollar house, people would listen to every word I had to say.

Randell their doctrine is often confusing and I don’t see how they can not be confused themselves.
They say Isa 53:5 ”’with His stripes we are healed” means people who are sick are really not sick. All they need do is believe God that they are not sick and they won’t be sick. They give Isa 53:5 a present tense…”ya ARE healed”. Yet why should Christians believe anything if they are not sick to begin with? Oh but you have to be sick so you can believe God that you are NOT sick, they teach.
They say have faith and God will heal you. But if “His strips ” have alreday healed you why have faith? James says the prayer of faith will save the sick …which is true (James 5:15) but if by His stripes we ARE healed why do we need a prayer of faith to be healed?
It sure looks to me that the Apostle Peter interpreted Isa 53:5 as meaning salvation.”Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:by whose stripes ye were healed.
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls” (1Peter 2:24-25)
Some even tell us to “speak” to our bodies and what ever ailment it has will, through our words make it well. But what about Isa 53:5 as they interpret it? But what ever happened to PRAYER? Jesus said “ask and ya shall receive”. We are to ask and they want to talk to it?
I could go on and on and on. Talk about confusion! Inconsistency!

oooops sorry Pastor….It’s Randall not Randell. I goof so often

“There is nothing we can do about it really. It seems the more we raise Cain about it the more we look like poor penniless preachers who never made it “big” and like to take our rage out on thoses wonderful caring and compassionate Pastors.”
—————————–

So why do you keep cutting off the ear of the Roman?
Matthew 26:50-52
Jesus said, “My friend, go ahead and do what you have come for.” Then the others grabbed Jesus and arrested him. 51One of the men with Jesus pulled out a sword and slashed off an ear of the high priest’s servant.

52″Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will be killed by the sword.
———————-
———————-

“Only God can stop such Pastors.”
————————————-
Ecclesiastes 11:6

In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.

and what seed are you sewing btw?

May I suggest Matthew 13 for your consideration.
What seeds are you sewing btw.

Here I have a hand full of seed you may have.

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I don’t see any where in the great Commision that we are to criticize one another or point out someone elses faults, gee what was that parable about the mote in the eye? Seems to me that is not our job at all.

I would be glad to join either of you at your church to hear you preach and discuss with you more face to face. So what churches do you preach at? I would like to come.

Squawkbox, Mt.7:13-23 says it all! I’ve quoted this before. Beware of flase prophets etc…
Non of what I say is of my own opinion. I am merely telling people what the bible says and comparing what the bible says and what these false prophets say. In addition, I am quoting what the bible says concerning Satan’s use of false prophets today. These aren’t my words! I didn’t write the bible brother. And I am doing just what the bible says do. I am warning people to read and study God’s words so they do not follow after false prophet!

You seem to be saying just let these false prophets rob from the poor, widows and the afflicted and let God deal with them later. These crooks are hurting people’s lives NOW! And the bible clearly defines them in the bible. I am only quoting from the bible and trying to open people’s eyes to what God says about these guys.

No way will I ever excuse a mony grubbing preacher that takes a person’s last dollar to squander it away on some foolishness like a 40 million dollar waterfall!!! Hard working people and retirees give their money in good faith because they believe they are giving to God. And you say “Just let them false prophets do as they wish”? No Way!!!

Squawkbox, I don’t really think you would like the way my church conducts themselves. You see we only take up an offering on the first day of the week. (1 Cor. 16:2) Every Sunday ONLY we place baskets on the ends of the last pews and people give as their hearts lead them to give. We don’t even preach tithing. In addition, I do not even take a salary. I have a job other than preaching.
I do not charge whenever I go to other churches to speak. And I will pray for the sick and witness to the sinners for free for the rest of my life!
1 Cor.9:18 and Mt.10:5-15
Now I know Olsteen charges 10.00 a ticket in some cases to speak. Some of his tickets sell on e-bay for 100.00 each. I know I’ve been in churches where they have taken up 6 or 7 offerings in one night.
I might also add that my church has less than 200 people in membership. We are very much like family. We know each other’s needs and we work to help each other financially or any other way we can. We have several men in our congregation that minister in other churches as well. We have bible study on Wednesday nights. We don’t have bible dictatorship. That’s where one speaks and everyone else listens. We all take part. Non of our members or faculty take a salary. This is a labor of love for us all. So, I don’t think you would feel very comfortable hearing a message that doesn’t include telling people to give their last dollar to plant a financial seed. You may not know how to act if we ask you if we can help you pay your electric bill or gas bill for the month.
You might feel a little put off if we ask if you need your mortgage payment paid that month. You might get caught off guard by the giving our people give to each other. These are people that really love one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. I am very proud to say that our church is paying college tuitions for several of our young christian adults. I am so proud of our congregation. Do you think you could stomach such a loving congregation? Or perhaps you feel more comfortable by the taking these Tele-evangelist do.

Squawkbox, there are genuine, God fearing, churches out there doing what God has instructed them to do. The role of the church has been blurred by these money hungry evangelist! It is unusual to hear of a church that gives instead of takes. It used to be the norm. We believe the church has work to do. We beleive the church must be regulated by scripture Col. 3:17, Eph. 2:10, Phil. 3:17.
We believe the church came together for reasons besides being money making machines. We believe in benevolence work (Acts6:1-6, 1 Tim.3:15).
We believe in worship not entertainment! We preach the word. Heaven and hell are 2 of our topics! We have prayer for the sick. We visit the shut-ins. We are not just Christians on Sunday! We live it 24/7! My hope is that one day the church can find its way back to it’s original role in society.

pastormoneybags
#354
I am glad to see that your church operates as it does. It is not my intent to criticize the works of your church. My offer was to visit your church and talk face to face with you. How the pastor of a church runs his church is between him and God. I do not wish to put you on the defensive either.

I find it interesting that you chose to tell me that I would not like it in your church. How would you know that? When anyone asks where I go to church I jump at the opportunity to invite them. I am not mean spirited in my comments. I hold no malice for anyone.

As I have said repeatedly. You allude to reaching those that are in places like Lakewood and my part in the discussion has been that WE must be careful to keep the subject on Jesus with them.

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

Approaching those by condemning “their” preacher is the same thing as “cutting the ear off the Roman.” Why would they want to listen to your message then? Jesus left us here to carry the good news. Jesus never chastised the Sadducees or Pharisees in front of their followers except when he threw the money changers. His message to the followers was always the Good News. How can our message be anything but that message. We reap what we sew spiritually as well.

My hope is that one day the church can find its way back to it’s original role in society.
—————————————-

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

That is the churches original role in society.

Squawkbox, In my opinion, you seem to want to take the “lay off” attitude toward these preachers that are fleecing their flock. I take the opposite approach. Jesus Christ spoke out against these deceivers and so will I.
The church is to serve many functions. It is for worship (Acts 20:7), for Edification (Heb. 10:24-25), To hear the word of God preached (Acts 11:26), Discuss church problems (Acts 15:30-31), Discuss the works of evangelism (Acts 14:26-27),
Benevolent work (Acts 6:1-6)
For prayer service (Acts 4:31)
Discipline wayward members (1 Cor. 5:4-5)

The role of the church is NOT to entertain! The rold of the church is NOT to make the pastor wealthy. The role of the church is Not to make people feel guilty about giving money they don’t have.

We teach and guide our church (not my church) by the bible. This is the only instruction manual we have. If you would come visit one of our services, you would be welcomed with open arms and made part of our church family.

Elder, I’m sure you’ve heard some strange things in the churches too. Have you seen any changes in the way the churches are being conducted since you began going to church?

pastormoneybags

My point is and remains this:
When you address the people that follow these “preachers” by first criticizing “their” pastor you stop all discussion and they become defensive.

Look at your reaction to me. I have not said one thing about your relationship with God, your pastor or the works of your church. Yet, you became defensive with me, suggested I would not like your church. I would “enjoy” (if that is the proper word) your church and the fellowship.

I am merely suggesting that your appraoch to the followers of these “money preachers” brings the same defensive reaction from them. In fact that was alluded to in your converstaions above. That is why I asked what seeds you are planting. That is why I pointed out exactly what the Father says we are to do first and foremost. The original purpose of the church.

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

Yes Jesus took on the apostate preachers of his time. But he took them on face to face. Once he (later the Apostles on their own) got the person into the flock then he warned of wolves in sheeps clothing. Read the red words in the Bible you will see what I mean.

I say this with all gentleness and meekness, look at how you reacted to me. I am sure you are sincere with concern in your heart for these people. I just ask that you think about and pray about what I have said. If I am wrong then I would ask that you pray that the Father place someone in front of me to show me the way. That is all I ask.

Squawkbox, I was being sarcastic when I said you may not enjoy the way our church is conducted. I am sorry if you were offended. Yes, you are right in that Jesus Christ took on the false prophets face to face. But now Christ left instructions for us. And one of those instructions is to preach the word of God. In the word of God are warnings of false prophets 2 Cor. 11:13 Also, there are many other scriptures warning of false prophets. There are also scriptures warning what will happen if you fall into the trap of following them. Hell is also part of God’s word WE are suppose to preach about. The bible is full of unpleasant things that we, as ambassadors of Christ
are instructed to teach on. We are to preach all the bible. We could, I guess, only pick out the positive things in the bible and make people feel good. But that is not what the bible tells us to do.
2 Cor. 11:14-15 Says “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of rightousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
Now, I don’t know about you but that scars me to death. How clever Satan is to transform himself into an angel of light and his followers to transform themselves into ministers. As I asked before, Where are these false prophets? The bible warns us time and again to watch out for them. So where are they? You see these are the things you can’t just let slip by. We must warn people! We must tell people what the bible says about false prophets and how to spot them. This is our duty as christians. Not everyone reads the bible as they should. Most people go to a church and they rely on what the preacher says is the truth. We must try to open people’s eyes to the truth. I don’t think you are wrong at all about your thinking. But I do think you should broaden your views a bit and include the evil parts the bible warns us about. We are in toubling times. If you haven’t noticed, these mega churches are taking over. The church has become real money makers.
The church is a far cry from what it is suppose to be. The churches in the bible when they were in peoples homes. Everyone knew each other. The church was a close knit family. Today the church is a corporation. Some of these mega churches have food courts.
I really think that as Christians we have to take back the church. We have to expose the wrong these preachers are doing. How can we finish the work Christ started if we allow these false prophets to take over and drowned out the real meaning of Christianity?

“I am sorry if you were offended.”
————————————-

No offense taken. I am not easily offended. I chose not to be.

The scripture you give above were given to the believers to warn them of the dangers, what they are up against, who the competition is so to speak. The people that led me to Christ started with leading me to Christ, got me into the fold then taught the other things.

——————————————–
How can we finish the work Christ started if we allow these false prophets to take over and drowned out the real meaning of Christianity?
——————————————–

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

Luke 9
1 Then he (Jesus) called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.

4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.

5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

I do not see anywhere in that statement where we as disciples are to do anything but preach the gospel and heal. This looks like very specific instructions to me as to what I am to preach.

Squawkbox, well if you don’t see it, it’s not because it isn’t there. Read James 5:19-20, Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Or how about Titus 1:10-11 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. And verse 13 says This witness is true. Wherefore Rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith.
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
I could go on and on with scriptures in the bible where people are warned about false prophets and to stay clear of them. The original disciples had to keep people focused on the one true gospel. This is why they warned others that there were other gospels being preached by anti-christs. The scriptures I gave you was a mere fraction of the warning the apostles told people.

Pastormoneybags
again you need to place the scripture you quote in context.
James 3

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

or how about James 4

James 4

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

11 “Speak not evil one of another, brethren.“ He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

James 5

8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

Again I speak this with quiet meekness. I make no apologies about my stance. You have not shown me where I am wrong. Throughout James he exhorts us to watch our tongues and not cause strife.
He tells us to be peacable with our brethren in correction.

James is speaking of US to steer clear of the false profits. He does not tell us not to condemn the followers of the false profits with our words.

Matthew 26:50-52
50 Jesus said, “My friend, go ahead and do what you have come for.” Then the others grabbed Jesus and arrested him.

52″Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will be killed by the sword.

high priests are the “preachers” you are concerned with

servant are those that follow those preachers.

Why close off the ears of the servants by appraoching them warning them about their priest. Why do you not approach them with the “good news” of Jesus? Create that common ground then you can talk to them about the wolves in sheeps clothing.

Did you not read Romans 16:17? It says to MARK them or identify them that cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and AVOID them! Avoid the false prophets!
Am I not saying the same thing? Was Paul cutting off the ears of the followers when he made all these statements?
You need to look at Galations chapter 1. Paul says in verse 9 As we said before, so I say again, If any manm preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received. let him be accursed.
How about verse 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of christ.
Does this sound like Paul is warning of false prophets? How am I saying anything differently?

Look, if these were my own words and opinions, this would be a completely different story. I am merely quoting from the bible. As I said before, if you want to leave out parts of the bible that offend people, that’s up to you. It’s too bad God didn’t feel that way or he wouldn’t have told Apostle Paul to write it down for us to learn and to teach. Maybe your approach is better for some. I don’t take false prophets lightly. I don’t take preachers perverting the word of God lighty. And the Apostles didn’t take them lightly neither. There were stern warning about false prophets and different gospels being preached. They were preached then and they still are today. They warned the people then and we should warn people today.

One more thing please. Being meek and kind to the christian is one thing. You do not be meek and kind to the devil and his ministers!

So you would walk up to a follower of Joel O’Steen and just start quoting scripture about not following Joel O’Steen because he is a minister of the devil?

Again you neglect the prior chapters. You neglect to read that Paul was speaking to those already saved and they were Romans. You fail to note that through the book of Romans that Paul addressed the Jews. You fail to note that AGAIN the disciple was warning the faithful about falling into traps. You neglect that in the previous chapters Paul taught that he strove TO PREACH THE GOSPEL to the unbeliever. No where does he say to condemn the unbeliever’s priest in front of the unbeliever.

Romans 15
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:

21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Romans 12
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

So I wonder if Joel O’Steen came to you hungry would you feed him?

And one more thing. Just what do you think Paul said to King Agrippa?

Then Agrippa said unto
Paul, ‘Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.’” Acts 26:28 (KJV)

You may do well to read Acts 26 and see how Paul did it.

No I would not walk up to anyone and say Joel Olstenn is of the devil. I would like to correct you on judgeing though. Obviously, we have to judge people in order to fulfill our part as christians. How can we follow the scriptures that tell us to never let anyone deceive us? Mt 24:4, Luke 21:8, 2 Thes. 2:3, Col. 2:8. If we are not to judge anyone at all, how then can we fulfill the Apostles command: “Beloved, do not believe every spirit; but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world’ (1 Jn. 4:1)
You are misguided on not judgeing preachers my friend. The bible doesn’t tell us not to judge at all. It is simply telling us to get our own lives right with God first before we judge others.
If Joel Olsteen or Joe Blow from kokomo came to me in need, I would give them the shirt off my back.
I do not hate anyone. I do hate deceiving spirits though. I actually pray for these tv ministers everyday.

We are not told to get our lives in order to be able to judge anyone. The only thing I judge about anyone is if they are going to harm me or not.

James 4
11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

I have maintained all through this that we are to preach Jesus. I could care less what anyone has done or what they are doing. I have one calling when doing God’s work.

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

While doing this I am to feed the hungry, give water to those that thirst, visit those in prison, visit the infirmed and the sick. No where am I told to call man a devil or a devil’s minister. If I “judge” a person I may miss an opportunity to preach Jesus. I may miss the chance to minister Angels.

How can you fulfill the command by the Apostles in 1 John 4:1 without judgeing. I’ll repeat it for you. It says Beloved, believe NOT every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. You do believe the Aposltes don’t you?
Or how can you obey the scriptures Mt. 24:4-5? It says this. And Jesus answered and said unto them. Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Now you’ve deflected this question twice. I’ll ask it again to you. How can you fulfill these verses without judgeing anyone?
How about Mt. 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Now how are you going to guard against being deceived if you don’t judge these preachers?

Why are you so worried about false profits and what they do when the great commision says what it says?

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to ALL CREATION. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

Then you will be battling false profits by taking away those that would be the false profits prey. Show me where we are commanded by Jesus to fulfill any verses. Jesus told us what to do when he said

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to ALL CREATION. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

Show me in that statement where I am to spend any time searching out and identifying false profits. If I come across one I preach the good news to him or her and move on. I am not told to sit and write in blogs, newspapers, get on TV radio send out news letters stand in front of their church and point them out. I am told to stay away, nothing more nothing less. If I come across someone in a false profit’s church I will probably not even know it but I will preach the good news of Jesus.

Oh BTW from what I have said to this point do you really think I am going to be deceived? Give me a break. What have I been saying. For how many days now have I been saying the same thing?

“Go into all the world and preach the good news to ALL CREATION. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

I have been aproached about other religions and explanations of “how to get to heaven”. There is only one way to rock and that is through Jesus Christ. I say and live that testimony boldly. You bang a hammer enough you will stop hitting your thumb.

If I offend anyone it is because they do not want to believe the message of Salvation. Nothing more. If they hate me for that message then so be it. Jesus has assured me that that person hated him first. So my message is simple. I am not left defending my position because I have only one message. The saving grace and mercy of God provided through his osn Jesus. Why would I want to argue about anything else.

You are correct. Go into all the world and preach the Gospel. The only proble with that is there are many gospels being preached. How can you tell which is the on true gospel? This is what the disciples were trying to explain to people. And they warned them not to be deceived.

Do you realize that one of the Gifts of the Holy spirit is “discernment of the Spirits”? 1 Cor. 12:10 So the holy spirit in us gives us the power to JUDGE whether or not a spirit is true or not.

Did Paul violate the scripture “Judge not that ye
be not judged” when he judged a fornicator in 1 Cor.5:1-13?
Did John the Baptist violate “judge not that ye be not judged” In Mat.3:7 when he called the Pahrisees and the Saducees a generation of Vipers?
Did Jesus Christ violate “Judge not that ye be not judged” In Mat.23:23-34 when he called the Pharisees Hypocrits, blind, serpents, and vipors?
Eph.5:11 says to have NO fellowship with the unfruitfulworks of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Yet, you think we should do the opposite. You think we should not expose them. You think we do not have the ability to identify a false prophet.
You think we should still have fellowship with them? Please correct me if I’m wrong.
But if you can’t judge because you are afraid of being judged, you are in danger of being deceived!

Lately I have not been in the mood to say anything .
Rather I have, Pastor , been reading what you and Squawkbox have been saying.
I like what both of you have been saying.
Hey Squawk you didn’t ask me if you could quote my material. (Smiling) I was honored. Didn’t know my thoughts were that important . (Smiling)
Anyway guys…..I hope to resume my participation soon. See ya

Elder, I’ll be looking forward to your comments.

I do want to make this point clear. I do not think we should judge people just for the sake of criticism. But I do think we have the obligation to tell people when these big time preachers are preaching something that is not biblical. And what makes it worse is these preachers are getting rich off of the poison they are spreading around!

pastormoneybags

“How can you tell which is the on true gospel?”

I am 50 years old. In 50 years of a very rough life if I have not learned anything else, I learned to go to the source of the information and find out what the source said. Excuse my words here. I got my ass kicked because I blindly took peoples word for what they passed off as Gospel. I got saved all right but no one explained to me such things as grace or mercy. I found myself stuck in religion till I figured out that what Jesus wanted was relationship/fellowship with me. No one told me that, all I knew was that I needed salvation to not to go to Hell. I got beat up spiritually speaking. I was a miserable wretch till I began to read and study the Bible for myself.

You will notice that I try to quote out of the King James Version of the Bible. The only reason I do is because it the version I am comfortable with, it is also what my Grandfather before me studied.

So after living in confusion, bouncing around wondering just exactly what the truth was I picked up the Bible and there it was…….THE TRUTH. Now I am no Bible scholar so I read the little black words and believed them. I don’t spiritualize, allegorize, read between the lines nothing. I read the words for what they say. I do not take anyones word for nothing when it comes to the word of God. I check out what they are saying with the book. I have my mentors and pastor but they are like me, very falible, they make mistakes. So I read and study the book for myself. When I am found wrong my friends tell me, when I find them wrong they tell me and show me.

Those that get deceived are those that don’t study the book for themselves. Frankly I do not have to judge anyones message. All I ask is one question from their message…..Who do you say Jesus is?

You can take on this “burden” of preaching a message against these preachers. I don’t care. I find it a waste of valuable time. I tried it. I spent more time explaining and defending my reason for pointing out their “poison” than talking about Jesus.

So let me see here.
You have since December 21st, 2005 at 9:50 pm through today spent your time pointing out these pastor’s short comings and why you are obliged to do so.

Now let’s look at my record the good and bad.
I said on
December 20th, 2005 at 4:09 pm e
Wanna get rich?
Open a church or start a new religion.
———————

A very poor joke I admit. I showed my rear end in a couple more posts (I apologize for that) and then I commented that “he” was not his “Dad”. At that point I expressed my concern that he did not make Christ the focal point of his message and why I was concerned. From that point on in the same day I defended why Christ should always be the focal point of any preachers message and mine and WHY.

I debated one guy who was defending Joel O’Steen and I have debated you. Throughout the entire discussions (go back and read it) I have consistantly said the same things over and over again and have not been swayed by yours or any other persons argument. My argument is why Jesus should be first.

I have an obligation to preach the good news of Christ to those that I meet. If that person accepts Christ as his savior then we discuss how to live and what to watch out for. The emphasus is ALWAYS JESUS. Anything else is a waste of time.

Elder 1
Send me a bill for using your material. (Grinning with ya)

If your child was going sled riding on a steep hill, and you knew there could be rocks and debris buried under the snow, would you warn your child to be careful? All that matters to your child is having fun sledding down the hill! Fun is all that matters to your child. But you know there is also dangersous things that could happen if they are not careful and watchful. So what is more important to you? Your child’s safety or your child’s fun?

Ephesians 6:4
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Proverbs 22:6
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Joshua 24:15

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

And if my child should depart from the way when they leave me house, then I would refer you to the story of the prodigals son.

If we rebuke it should be with the Word for it is that which cuts and convicts Heb 4:12 Not us…Not our thoughts but His thoughts…..It can happen that we get in the way of His Thoughts by our thoughts. That is probably why God says His ways and thoughts are not ours (Isa 55:8)
We must always be careful that when we reprove anyone we do it with the understanding that it is not from us but from the God who loves the one we are rebuking and we who are rebuking.
Also along with this our reproof will be indirect.
We can’t get the money grabbing guys to one on one with us. We can probably get one of the many “pastors” the guys have and do we think our criticism is going to go to the “senior” guy? We’d have to be dreaming. As I’ve said the money grabbers condescene to us. There is too much money involved. Insulation of thousands shield them too.
They have been under constant “name it and claim it” and “faith brings prosperity” teachings. Don’t for a minute think those 40,000 plus out there in the sanctuary listening are Biblically ignorant about what is being preached. They are a hard nut to crack.
It really must come down to PRAYER……constant prayer..mixed with love……Intense desire for
change…..But change only for the Glory of God

Squawkbox, again you failed to answer my question. Anyway, the verse you quoted, if you train a child etc… That doesn’t always mean in a postive way. If a child is trained wrongly, it is hard for them to change too.

Elder, I have to agree with you in that we must use the bible to battle against these preachers. That is exactly why I try to include a scripture whenever I point out what these preachers are teaching is wrong. Romans 16:17 tells us to Mark them that cause devisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which we have learned.
Taht means to identify them or expose them for misinterpreting the scriptures.

I answered your question. Directly.

If it were in me I’d take offense at your accusation that I would give my children bad training. I teach my children what the Bible says. I teach my child the principles directly out of the Bible. Are you telling me the BOOK OF PROVERBS is negative teaching. Please explain to me how I am training my child in a negative way if I use THE BIBLE as my guide. I do the same thing with anyone that I am actively mentoring.

Shame on you. You need to go and read what the Bible says. You want to justify your anger and your your spirit of judgementalism. You leave those you would influence with a bitter taste for the Lord. You would make them worse than when you met them. I pity anyone that you try to teach. I pray for them. I have yet to see from YOU any room for grace and mercy.

Squawkbox, you clearly misunderstood my point. My point is that there are people leading a sinful life in front of their children. And that is teaching by example. And it is hard for those children, that have grown up believeing certain things were ok, to change. I was, in no way, pointing a finger at you. The verse that says “if you train a child in the way he should go; when he is old he’ll not depart from that”. Can go both ways is all I meant.

Whenever a preacher does one thing and the bible says another, I have no mercy for them! When a preeacher takes from the poor, widow, and the afflicted, I have no mercy for them. When someone wants to defend the actions of these false prophets, I have no mercy for them! You are exactly right!

I did not misunderstand what you said. You said what you said quite clearly.

Whenever a preacher does one thing and the bible says another, I have no mercy for them! When a preeacher takes from the poor, widow, and the afflicted, I have no mercy for them.

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Where is your justice, mercy and faithfulness? Where is your room for mercy.

I am glad you were not around when I needed mercy. I was a liar, a thief, a drunk no better no worse than the preachers you want to “battle”. I wonder how you would have approached me? Do you not think that the people you appraoch about these preachers would be blind to your “No mercy” stance? I tell you the truth no one will hear you and you will continue to wonder why.

Preach Jesus him crucified and you will see the good fruits of your labors. I tried your way, it does not work.

I’m out of here.

Well first of all, when you were a liar, a thief and a drunk hopefully you weren’t in the pulpit pretending to be God’s messenger. Did Jesus have mercy for false prophets? Did Paul have mercy for false prophets? When you were a liar, a thief and a drunk, do you think you would have any business in the pulpit preaching? Well there are a lot of those type of people in the pulpits today. And Jesus Christ and the Apostles warned us about them.
So do you think we should ignore them a let them spew their poison and venom to innocent people?

You are stuck on this. I have said all I going to say on the matter. You sir are in my prayers. You need them.

Well I guess the Apostles were wrong and Christ was wrong too in your opinion. They preached the same exact thing I’m teaching. And you can teach mercy all you want my friend; but when you die, if you have been following these false prophets, see how much Mercy God has on your soul. Then you can tell him to have mercy on you for supporting false prophets. Go ahead my friend and keep supporting these preachers that are teaching opposite of what the bible says. God is a merciful God. But God is also a vengeful God. Make no mistake about it!

God is no Mr. Rogers! And neither were the Apostles. Paul strikes a sorcere blind! Acts 13:11

Isiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

You can cry mercy and love all you want my friend. God is much more than that! God is not tolerant of false prophets and them that support them!

You have spun the words and teachings into how you want it to fit your agenda. You pick and choose the verses to fit YOUR view, while ignoring the context and true message of what is said.

And now you have spun my words to say that I support these people, that I condone what they do. I find it intersting that now you are judging me.

Matthew 7:3

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

yes, that is what I’ve been saying. The bible doesn’t say Not to judge. It merely says get the beam out of your eye first. And I’ve spun nothing! You just don’t like the scripture I’ve put to you. It’s hard to argue with the truth ole boy. Nothing I’ve said is of my own opinion. I let the bible speak for me. You can go ahead and protect these thieves if you want to. I’m not! And God didn’t and the Apostles didn’t. So whose side are you on brother? You can’t be in the middle. You are either on God’s side or the devil’s side. I’ve have pointed out to you numerous lies these preachers have said and yet you want to stop me because you say I’m judgeing them. Are you protecting these false prophets that say give your last dollar to them? Are you protecting these false prophets that take from the poor so they can finance their affluent lifestyles?
Are you protecting these false prophets that sell (supposedly) holy water in a bottle? Are you protecting a man that charges tickets to hear him preach whent eh bible says to preach the gospel for free? Just whose side are you really on?

My My seems you have become defensive and accusatory also.

Just whose side are you really on?
———————————-

If you are asking me who I say Jesus is. He is the Son of the Living God. The Son of the living God that placed a person in front of me that preached Jesus and him crucified and was raised from death 3 days later so that sinners like me might be saved. Ummm yeah I guess you could say I am on his side. It is because Jesus saved my unworthy self that I owe nothing to no one but him.

Any more questions?

Seems to me that you know more about these preachers than Jesus.

I would ask you as I would ask these preachers. Where is your message of Jesus? Where is your message of he Gospel? In effect you are asking me to choose between you and those preachers.  I choose neither.  In fact I find your message as repulsive as theirs.

I am assured through the word of God that he will never leave me or forsake me, so I am on the side of Father, Son and HolyGhost.

Elder I. Says:
January 29th, 2006 at 12:02 pm e

If we rebuke it should be with the Word for it is that which cuts and convicts Heb 4:12 Not us…Not our thoughts but His thoughts…..It can happen that we get in the way of His Thoughts by our thoughts. That is probably why God says His ways and thoughts are not ours (Isa 55:8)
We must always be careful that when we reprove anyone we do it with the understanding that it is not from us but from the God who loves the one we are rebuking and we who are rebuking.

Very well said Elder and I agree. The problem I see is that there are way too many “rebukers” out there that have no other message but rebuking one person or another. I ran with a guy once that was all he did. Rebuke rebuke rebuke…..blah blah blah. I finally asked him where his message of Jesus was. After the blank stare and no answer I took my leave of his presence.

I will always belive that when I cross paths with someone that is following some wayward pastor that our conversation begins with and mainly contains the message of Jesus and him crucified. The Holy Spirit gives wisdom in this matter. There is no way that anyone is going to come to the saving grace of Christ when the first words out of the mouth equates to condemning their “pastor”. Once a person is saved they are reborn and the Holy Spirit does the convicting. I don’t have to and I am not going to.

The prodigals son is a beautiful picture of how, as Chrisitians, we get off the right path in our lives. Most people like to look at the story as how good “The Father” is but fail to see themselves as the prodigals son. Been there and done that myself.

So another words squawkbox, you are NOT going to mark the ones that cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them? Romans16:17

And you most certainly wouldn’t want to preach or teach Mt.24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible,they shall deceive the very elect.”

Yeah, keep it on the soft side. You wouldn’t want people to know the real truth. You want to teach to the itching ears so you don’t scare them away. Right?

Let me tell you the problem with sugar coating the Gospel. Man must realize his fallen condition. It is fine to preach God’s love but you must preach repentence! When you water down the Gospel you de-emphasize the need for repentence. A person must be sorry for their sins and realize that they are lost without God’s forgiveness. When a person thinks they can accept God with love and joy, they have no roots. Mt.13:20-21 “But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receive it; yet hath he no root in himself, but dureth for a while; for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.”

You must preach The entire bible. That includes repentence for your sins! It is useless to tell a sinner to believe in Jesus if that sinner is not convicted in his heart for his sins. Telling someone that God loves them doesn’t save them! Telling someone that they can go to heaven one day, doesn’t save them! There is NOTHING you can do to save a sinner that doesn’t feel the spirit of God convicting them of their sins. Repentence and accepting God’s forgiveness for your sins builds faith. Once a person realizes they are lost, and they are convicted of being a sinner, then they repent for their sinful life, They are saved. Then they learn what discipleship is all about. It is no bed of roses. There are may trials and tribulations that a disciple (student of the gosple) must go through. There will be many persecutions. The faith that they believe in a God that will forgive them for their sins is what will get them through.

Hit a nerve?

One of the men with Jesus pulled out a sword and slashed off an ear of the high priest’s servant.

You have suggested that I am a heretic, suggested that teaching my child from the Bible can turn into wrong teaching, suggested I was on the satan’s side, you have called the teaching of the bible wrong, you have no room for mercy, you do not know me or what I preach or how I preach so you say my message that is directly from the word of God is wrong. You suggested that I must choose between you and others and then get angry because I say I am on the side of the Father Son and Holy Ghost.

You make me laugh. The more I backup my statements with the same message of grace and mercy you get angrier because I refuse to yield under your message of rebuke. I have nothing to be rebuked for. The Holy spirit has not stricken my soul, so I see no reason to let you strike my conscience. You have proven my point.

Mark 7:16
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

I fear you have more than your share of ears as trophies.

Mark 5

18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.

19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

Squawkbox, I’ve never suggested teaching your child from the bible can turn inot a wrong. Those are your fabricated words. And on your second point. Yes, Jesus did many miraculous things to bring attention that he was the won of God. The Gospel was beginning under a new establishment. We must now be saved by grace. Jesus turned water into wine, Jesus raised people from the dead, Jesus healed many people, Jesus fed the 5,000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 small fishes. These were to bring attention to the son of God. Today we don’t need such miracles. We have the bible.

pastormoneybags Says:
January 31st, 2006 at 7:02 pm e
Those are your fabricated words.
——————————-
Oh really. well let us see YOUR words then.

pastormoneybags Says:
January 29th, 2006 at 2:22 pm e
Squawkbox, again you failed to answer my question. Anyway, the verse you quoted, if you train a child etc… That doesn’t always mean in a postive way.

So tell me YOU DO NOT TWIST THE VERSE. What is this above.

Here is the verse.
Proverbs 22:6
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

So what more positive way are you talking about? Train a child in the ways he should go sounds real simple to me. And yes what you said does imply that I did not raise my child correctly.

pastormoneybags Says:
January 31st, 2006 at 7:02 pm e
“The Gospel was beginning under a new establishment”
——————————–
So what? What was good for Jesus then is not good for us now huh?

You missed the point of the verse. Here let me refresh you.

19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

So what you are telling me is that the way Jesus brought people to him is not how we should do it today? You are telling me that I should not be compassionate to those that are lost or misguided.

Let me see here.
My actions with these people:
I would pray for them and talk to them about the saving grace of Jesus.

And let us see what you would do?
You said:
I have no mercy for them! You are exactly right!
—————————————
Googbye pastormoneybags you are no longer worth my time. I am going to spend my precious time with someone that needs to hear the Glory of God and needs hope. That person has seen enough of your kind.

Squawkbox, Show me one scripture where Jesus ws so compassionate and merciful for false prophets! Show where Jesus showed love for false prophets!
You are clueless! You are comparing apples with oranges. Jesus Christ and the Apostles had NO mercy or love or Tolerence for false prophets. That’s their words not mine. You have absolutely no business discussing the bible with anyone. You haven’t a clue as to what you are even talking about. You act as if you want to preach love and tolerance for everyone including those that are deceiveing and divisive. That is not biblical and you are completely out of order trying to even teach that nonsense! You are not spreading the glory of God. That’s the problem. If you was to teach the glory of God, you must teach repentence as the number one rule. Just where does repentence fall into your list of things to teach someone? Again, you have no clue as to what the bible even says or what the teachings and warnings of Jesus Christ are.
Why don’t you make your arguement valid and give me a scripture where Christ was merciful and loving to false prophets?

The more I backup my statements with the same message of grace and mercy you get angrier because I refuse to yield under your message of rebuke. I have nothing to be rebuked for. The Holy spirit has not stricken my soul, so I see no reason to let you strike my conscience. You have proven my point.

Why don’t you make your arguement valid and give me a scripture where Christ was merciful and loving to false prophets?

Oh but did you happen to forget Nicodemus? My My he was a Sanhedrin council member. Explain that one away.

Along with fellow Pharisee Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus retrieves Jesus’ body from the cross and prepares it for burial.

Oh yeah and since I know you don’t read the little black words in the Bible, the Sanhedrin and Pharisee where the false prophets of the day.

So I guess Jesus is a liar? Whose side are you on?

And let us see what you would do?
You said:
I have no mercy for them! You are exactly right!

And what does Jesus say to do?
Luke 6
37 ‘Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven;

But I gotta thankyou. Ya see I am blessed and a real happy camper.
Luke 6
22 ‘Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you* on account of the Son of Man.

23Rejoice on that day and leap for joy, for surely your reward is great in heaven; for that is what their ancestors did to the prophets.

pastormoneybags
You are now on my permanent ignore list. You are also on my prayer list.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

You haven’t backe up any of your statements. You’ve only contridicted yourelf over and over again. You use scriptures that totally irrelovent to your statements.
You have perverted the bible by denying the fact that a person needs to repent for their sins. And you support false prophets; which Christ called the devil and his ministers.

Luke 12:4-5 “And I say unto you my freinds, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will FOREWARN you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea I say unto you, Fear him.”

2 Peter 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destrution.”

2 Peter 2:4 “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement.”

Folks, this is the same God that squawkbox has been trying to convence you that God has no vengence! This is the same God that these false prophets and false teachers say is all loving and kind. God warned you not to follow after every doc trine that comes along. And God warned you as to who you need to fear. Take it for what it’s worth to you.

I have not denied anything and you are the one that continues to say that I support anyone.

How do you square your view with this.

And what does Jesus say to do?
Luke 6
37 ‘Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Keep on insuring that I am blessed.

Luke 6
22 ‘Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you* on account of the Son of Man.

You are so self centered and self important that you think there are others than yourself, Elder and me reading this thread. Got a little newsflash for you. I am the moderator of this blog and I have checked the records……we are it.

And you are in denial! I answered your questions regarding judgeing others. I’ve answered you using scriptures from the bible. You have rejected any verse or scripture I have given you. Let me try again to give you some scriptures to think about.
Mat. 7:15-16, 2 John 9:11, Mat.18:15-20,2 Tim. 2:16-18, 1 Cor. 5:11, 1 Cor. 10:15, Gal.6:1,
2 Thes.3:6-14, 1 Tim.3:1-12, Titus 1:5-9, Titus 3:10

Now, since you want to beat a drum about not judgeing, you should at least know what you’re talking about first.

Please check the scriptures before you launch another attack against the holy word. These are NOT my words. You are not insulting me. You are perve5rting the word of God though. You need to be careful.

2 Thessalonians 3:6-14 “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us……

If you don’t read any of the verses I gave you, at least read the rest of 2 Thes. 3:6-14. I only wrote the first verse. Now whatever you want to think. Whatever you want the bible to say, you have to contend with these verses that clearly and unmistakenly says to judge others.

You have yet to explain to me Nicodemus? He was a Pharisee, a false prophet of his time. You asked I answered.

And now you accuse me of “attacking the Bible”. I have not at any time said the Bible was wrong. You have though:

pastormoneybags Says:
January 29th, 2006 at 2:22 pm e
Squawkbox, again you failed to answer my question. Anyway, the verse you quoted, if you train a child etc… That doesn’t always mean in a postive way.

You have also said that I was not supposed to have grace and mercy for the followers of “false prophets” when the Bible clearly says:

Luke 1:77-79

77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

78 because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven

79 to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

All this time I have pointed out the mercy and grace of Jesus that is available to all men. Please tell me how I am attacking the Bible. I have also told you that I teach repentence in the course of bringing someone to Christ.

You judge me wrongly so again I can claim the blessing of God.

Luke 6
22 ‘Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you, revile you, and defame you* on account of the Son of Man.

You have reviled and defamed me. But that is OK. It is not your judgement that concerns me. As I said before; the Holy Spirit has not struck my spirit.

I am still praying for you. You are no different than those you would condemn. You preach a “god” of condemnation and no mercy.

I teach this:
John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

So pastormoneybags tell me again how I attacking the Bible. Tell me again how I am wrong for teaching salvation through Jesus the Son of God.

I never judged you wrongly at all. You still insist that we are not to judge and the bible clearly says we are. So you are WRONG again! You clearly have attacked every scripture I’ve given you. You deny that the bible says we are to judge.
We are to MARK them that deceive. We are to NOT follow false prophets. How would you know if they are false prophets or not if you do not judge them?
You claim I am preaching a God without mercy. I showed you scripture to back up everything I’ve said. You want to close your eyes to the truth.
And you failed to answer me when I asked if Paul broke your rule of judgeing in 1 Cor. 5:1 When he judged a fonicator.
Did John break your rule of judgeing others when he called the Pharisees and Saducees hypocrits? Why do you not have an answer for that?

Again you quoted a scripture you have no clue as to the full meaning. John 3:16!
You cannot be saved without repentence! And you do not even recognize that others, including yourself and myself, need to repent because we are sinners. Is that being judgemental or quoteing scripture? You believe in half truthes.

So now you judge me as unsaved?  You question my understanding of the basic scripture of salvation?  How can you dare judge what is in my heart?  I fear for your soul which is more mercy, grace, compassion or understanding than you have given me.

John 15-18
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe the words here are very simple to undersatnd and believe which I do. I fear for your very soul. I will continue to pray for you.

Which brings me to this. If I am so bad and mistaken why have you not offered to pray for me? That is OK if you don’t, I have the Holy Spirit that prays for me and Jesus as my advocate at the very thrown of God. So I will understand if you don’t.

Them that believeth on him shall be saved. That is so true. They shall be! They could be! There are requirements to getting saved. First of all, you must believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. But then, you MUST repent of your sins!
Satan believes in God. Is he saved? Of course not! We have a requirement to understand that we are all sinners. And, no matter how much God loves us, if we feel that we don’t need to repent for our sins, we will be lost.
God loves all mankind but there will be plenty that will go to hell because they think, if there is a God, and he is all loving, he would never send someone to hell.
Is this your way of thinking? Do you think that all you have to do is believe and you are saved? That might be where we are having such differences.
You have still failed to answer any of my questions about Paul and John judgeing.
And, don’t kid yourself. It takes more than just believeing to be saved.

Note the words “should not perish” “shall be saved”

And as far as praying for you. Matt. 10:14

Matt. 10:14
Uh Huh I thought so.

As for answering the Paul and John question. One more time. They are talking about people that are within the church that are continuing to do what is not right. Of course you remove the rotten fruit. Because they will influence the rest of the church.

As for salvation. The thief on the cross was repenting of his sins before he asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into his Kingdom. Do you think that man spent the last of his hours “repenting”? NO. He was set free and looked forward to when he got to heaven to be with the father.

I was repenting of my sins before I asked the father to forgive me. He forgave me and set me free. We are saved and baptised for the remission of sins. I am set free so why would I want to keep repenting as you would have me do? I have a responsibility to clean up the mess I made, but staying alive with a sack of guilt on my back after salvation is RELIGION and unbiblical. I am free because the Father has set me free.

You go on judging and rebuking, I am going to continue ministering to a hurting world that needs that knowledge that Jesus can and will save them through grace and Mercy. You go ahead and keep mincing words.