The lovely and talented Anne Linehan points out an intriguing story about Victoria Osteen, wife of megachurch tycoon pastor Joel Osteen:
Taking time off from the high profile hustle and bustle of running a mega-church, Lakewood Church Pastor Joel Osteen and his family boarded Continental flight 1602 Monday morning at Houston’s big airport. They were bound for the slopes in Colorado.
Their trip was delayed and so was the entire flight by almost two hours. Fellow passengers blame the popular Osteens, specifically Joel’s wife, Victoria.
According to passenger accounts, the Osteens were sitting in first class. Soon after the plane’s door was closed, the FBI says Victoria Osteen was removed following what Continental would call only a disturbance. The Osteens’ spokesman confirms it involved a flight attendant, but that’s all. However, one passenger tells Eyewitness News she was alerted to the front of the plane when she heard a commotion.
"She violently ran towards the cockpit, scaring everyone around her," said passenger Knicky Van Slyke. "Everyone was terrified about what was going on. And a bunch of flight attendants ran up and had to restrain her. She was banging on the door."
"Of the cockpit?" we asked.
"Yes."
Now I’ve got a few questions that y’all can help me with in the comments:
- Were there air marshals on the flight?
- If so, why didn’t they do anything? Were they cowed about recent bad press?
- Why the hell is a preacher flying first class to a ski trip anyway?
December 20th, 2005 at 11:33 am
Them’s big bucks in them thar coffers sonny boy.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:34 am
The FBI said it’s not investigating, Lakewood says the “cockpit rushing” didn’t happen, and Continental says it’s all over and done with. If this happened like the witness said an investigation would be ongoing. Something’s fishy about that “eyewitness” account.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:39 am
The FBI said it’s not investigating
Whatever that means. From KTRK:
Ah, no investigation, just review. I’m glad they cleared that up.
The involuntary nature of the deboarding is certainly odd, but I see no reason to give great deference to the Joel Osteen press shop’s characterization of the matter. If there’s one press shop in town that’s more effective than Bill White’s, it’s that one.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:58 am
I left my comments on the open comment thread.
I bet we don’t hear much more on this. Continental does not want a public battle with the Osteen’s and the Osteens don’t want to tarnish their image.
Interesting none the less.
December 20th, 2005 at 12:01 pm
Matt, re your questions. Yeah I would like them answered as well. I made mention of the fact I have read Joel Osteen’s book, and I watch him on TV. I like the guy. I am very skeptical of Mega churches and “rock star” preachers, so as I said I would be saddened to see that my “respect” was misplaced.
The Osteens are due no deferential treatment. But they will get it.
December 20th, 2005 at 12:02 pm
She probably just wished the flight attendant a Merry Christmas.
/sarc
December 20th, 2005 at 12:04 pm
“Why the hell is a preacher flying first class to a ski trip anyway?”
Well, the mountain didn’t come to Mohammed, did it?
December 20th, 2005 at 12:07 pm
What, nobody shot her?
December 20th, 2005 at 12:22 pm
Nah, Vic, she’s rich and white. Don’t you know Bu$hHitler’s Halliburton-trained oil mercenaries only murder minorities and the poor?
December 20th, 2005 at 12:35 pm
So “preachers” are not allowed to fly first class? I think if drug dealers, rappers, theives and probably terrorists can fly first class, why can’t preachers?
December 20th, 2005 at 12:50 pm
#10 - answer = humility
December 20th, 2005 at 1:03 pm
#11 What is un-humble about trying to provide nice transportation for your family as you go on vacation? I really doubt Joel took a vow of asceticism
December 20th, 2005 at 1:09 pm
IMO, it’s a bit of a stretch to call Joel Osteen a “preacher”. A “talker” would be more accurate. I used to think he was okay, even tho he rarely mentions scriptures in his “talking”. But then I heard him apologizing for saying that you have to believe that Jesus Christ is your savior in order to get to heaven. ! Said something like “who am I to say who can go to heaven?”. Uh, hello? You hold yourself forth to be a Christian minister. You should be preaching the gospel, not just mouthing whatever gets the most bodie$ into your so-called church.
A huge church, which, did you notice, did not open their doors for the hurricane Katrina people? Years ago when the area in East Houston where their original ‘church’ building is flooded, they let people in only until they could ship them out to the public school buildings.
December 20th, 2005 at 1:09 pm
#12:
Ya think?
December 20th, 2005 at 1:09 pm
I fly quite a bit. I got bumped to first class . . .once.
But my pastor is running around like a one armed paper hanger this week. I don’t care about the trip. I don’t (really) care about the first class. But what bothers me is the trip, the first class and the timing all at once. Seems to be missing a bit of the humility that Angry Dan refers to.
Mega-churches scare me. I met three of the pastors from the FOTW in a rather short time frame (two weeks). Two out of three left a skeptical feeling in my mind. Not sure what to make of it. I just worry about Kool-aid.
December 20th, 2005 at 1:16 pm
There is a kink in their armor!
Thats all.
They are not perfect people…but it doesnt look good.
December 20th, 2005 at 1:17 pm
This is pathetic. A week before Christmas and they are off jet-setting to Colorado to ski.
They need to practice what they preach. They’re no better than the Crouches, the Swaggarts, the Tiltons, etc. as far as I’m concerned.
THIS IS INDEFENSIBLE.
December 20th, 2005 at 1:28 pm
From the Chronicle:
“Church spokesman Donald Iloff said the Osteens and their children had boarded Flight 1602 and were preparing to settle into the first-class section when Victoria Osteen noticed liquid in her seat.
She contacted a flight attendant, Iloff said, but the spill apparently was not cleaned up to Victoria Osteen’s satisfaction.”
Welcome to Lifestyles of The High and Mighty
December 20th, 2005 at 1:52 pm
Woe be unto anyone who puts his faith in any man.
I personally like Joel and how he presents his message but I get that “full of one’s self” fear with a few in his entourage.
Rare is the “man” who ‘farteth’ but not leave a scent.
December 20th, 2005 at 1:53 pm
Let’s take it easy on Swaggart. Before he got caught ministering to the wayward girls on Airline Highway he had his mother-in-law working in the count room with a security camera on her while she handled the money. A man after my own heart…with a razor.
December 20th, 2005 at 1:57 pm
#19
m9777, is that last line from the KJV, the Revised Standard or the Good News?
December 20th, 2005 at 2:02 pm
I still don’t understand what is wrong with a Pastor flying first class to go on vacation with his family. My father was a pastor for most of my life, I know that he would have loved to be able to do something like that for us on one of our family vacations, however, preaching at smaller churchs he didn’t make enough to do that. I don’t condone acting a fool on a plane, which it seems his wife did, but I don’t think you condemn a man for trying to provide a nice holiday for his family.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:24 pm
Moose, I take a shot at your question. I have always had a skeptical eye where the mega churches are concerned. The church I belong is far from Mega, most of the excess funds are used to further the “word” of God, and to do good where good needs to be done. I see these huge Mega churchs where it seems to me growth is for growth sake. I don’t know how Lakewood spends its money. I don’t think many people do as they are closely “held” among the Osteen family.
I think the question comes in play when the Osteens fly four people first class. The cost of that trip would be close to six grand if they paid standard fare for first class travel. I bet there were Lakewood members who tithe regularly sitting in coach, while the Osteens traveled First class.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:28 pm
On a whim I checked the fare with a month advance for four people first class to Vail (where flight 1602 was headed, actually Eagle co. airport, might have been aspen) Total fare for four first class is 5912.00
http://www.continental.com/fSearch.asp?SID=EE80B3412CA944B69FF02819E16CF2E3&PS=US&AF=0&FS=RT&SS=HP&ST=LF
December 20th, 2005 at 2:30 pm
Coach fare for four persons on same flight is total 1348.00.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:31 pm
I have been in and around the “business” of Christianity for several years now. The things I’ve seen would make your head spin (not shake).
How can a pastor in good conscience solicit money from people who can’t afford it, then “waste” it on this type of extravagance? And a week before Christmas? Isn’t this “Prime Time” for saving souls (along with Easter)?
It reeks. Period.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:32 pm
To be fair, the Osteens might have used funds from his book sales, so who knows.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:33 pm
Shaker, I tend to agree with you. Just hate to see it .
December 20th, 2005 at 2:34 pm
I wont even get into the cost of sking in Vail.
Ahh well I dont wonder why he shakes his head.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:39 pm
Feagy, at some point in the recent past Osteen became the church. They even launched a new website www.joelosteen.com. A lot of Christians (and Lakewood attendees) disapprove of how people are “worshipping” Joel instead of Jesus.
It doesn’t matter if the money came from book sales. The line is so blurred that anything Joel has comes from his role as pastor of Lakewood. There’d be no book if he hadn’t become pastor.
I’m telling you from personal experience, I’m so sick of this type of thing, and I won’t give a dime to any church that operates like this.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:42 pm
Yeah just as I suspected. We won’t hear much more.
From the Chronicle
“and those passengers and therefore both parties feel no further comment is necessary.”
Continental wants it to go away. Joel Osteen wants it to go away. Hence its gone.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:44 pm
They better hope the national media doesn’t pick up on it, especially after the Miami incident.
Another example of the power of money (err, prayer)!
December 20th, 2005 at 2:44 pm
Shaker your bursting my bubble man. But I knew it all along. Like I said, I just hate to see it.
I agree with you re. the book. I also agree with you re. the season.
Hell I agree with you.
December 20th, 2005 at 2:47 pm
Feagy, I appreciate all the agreeing! God knows I don’t get this kind of treatment at home!
Let’s have lunch someday, on Matt. LOL!
December 20th, 2005 at 2:48 pm
Good for me. I like food. Even if you are a “bubble burster”
December 20th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
34: Sounds good. I know this Chinese food place with the best soy sauce…
December 20th, 2005 at 2:58 pm
#21…that was from a “Bell County dirt farmers” bible I was taught from too regularly….
December 20th, 2005 at 3:11 pm
Beware of the Church of the Perpetual Building Fund/Large Screen Viewing necessary to see the minister. Reminds me of the two old guys at the back of the crowd in the movie Life of Brian. The one old guy says to the other, “What did he say?”
Other guy answers, “He said blessed are the CHEESEMAKERS”. lst old guy says “Cheesemakers? What’s so special about cheesemakers?”. 2nd old guy says, “You’re not supposed to take that literally. He means all dairy products”.
When you’re too far away from God, something gets lost in the translation.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:13 pm
Well I’ll be……. I agree with Big. Both on the church of the perpetual building fund, and the life of Brian.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:27 pm
My gosh, you mean if you are a minister you are not allowed to take your family to ski in Colorado or fly first class? Ministers get a salary for their service and the board of the church sets that. So how would any of you like being told how you can or cannot spend your own money? Would you like to be condemned for taking your family on a nice and vacation to see the snow and the beauty of Colorado at Christmas time?
Lakewood does have more than just one minister. So I’m sure they can all take turns taking their vacations on or right around Christmas. I do not attend at Lakewood but I do not think Joel Osteen is a greedy evil person. Pastors are just people like we all are. They are not perfect. If you are going to let what you see, or might think you see pastors do, determine your walk God in this life, then you are in big spiritual trouble. People are always so quick to try and tear down ministers. God says touch not my anointed. I would be very careful about what I say or do. Sure we need to be careful with who we take our teaching from but I will leave God to judge his called ones.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:30 pm
HWJF - How Would Jesus Fly? First class?
December 20th, 2005 at 3:30 pm
Feagy, sorry to burst your bubble. Being Catholic, it’s easy for me to see the troubles with the various denominations
Anyway, it appears Matt has agreed to funch (fund lunch) for us! Thanks pal! The Pope would be proud of your generosity.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:37 pm
the whole bunch of you should find something to do with your spare time.
You know absolutely nothing about this incident, yet you have accused his wasting the churches money and have attacked his wife.
Matt need to get over this (big) problem of white people with money.
“she’s rich and white”.
Move on matt. I’ve seen you use this expression, like there is somthing wrong with being white.
You did it once when hosting the 700 AM morning show.
If you are guilt problem with being white, get some help.
rj
December 20th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
#40 - People are always so quick to tear down ministers. Let’s see why: Paul and Jan Crouch, Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggart, the Bakers, and so on and so on and so on. Don’t you get it?
I’m not putting Joel in this category because I personally like the guy and think he’s sincere for the most part, but as the head of a worldwide ministry, I think it’s poor judgment for him to go skiing in Vail a few days before the 2nd most important “holiday” for Christians. How do you think the people he takes money from, who can’t afford really to even give it but they are “planting that seed”, feel about this? How about the people seeking Christ and salvation? What message does this send?
You wonder why I shake my head.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:42 pm
RJ: I was joking, just tweakin’ Vic. And I’ve never hosted the 700 AM morning show. Or any other radio show, ever.
So, to sum up:
What the hell are you talking about?
December 20th, 2005 at 3:47 pm
Matt, it’s the holidays, everyone is a little nutso right now.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:52 pm
They are lucky I wasnt on that plane. I would have grabbed Victoria,wrestled her to the ground,laid on top of her so she couldnt get away and done a very thorough and extensive patdown to see if she was packing. No need to thank me. Its my duty.
Kaaaaabooooommmmmm!!! Damn! Lighning bolt almost hit me. Whats up with that?
December 20th, 2005 at 3:54 pm
Gregg’s back, kids, and he brought his “A” game.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:57 pm
After reading the many posts, I am somewhat shocked no one bothered to check the facts. I am not a member of Lakewood Church, and am not a fan of Joel Osteen. However, it is a well known fact that he does not accept any salary from Lakewood Church, nor his is known to spend much time requesting donations. He is known to be one of the largest givers TO the church. (Also, the church finances have been scruntinized by a number of media organzations and found to be in good order.) Osteen was a millionaire prior to becoming the pastor of Lakewood due to past real estate deals. Since that time, his best selling book had enhanced his wealth and allowed his family to live a very comfortable life style. It is true that the book sells and other things would not be there if he were not the Lakewood pastor, however, he could have probably afforded a first class vacation either way.
Secondly, while I am not really trying to defend the Osteens, having flown plenty of flights on the aforementioned airline, there have been some flight attendants who are rude enough to make anyone want to rush off the plane. I would suggest that judgement be withheld until all the facts are known.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:58 pm
Matt, don’t let him bug you. You have nothing to feel guilty about being white. Besides, I think he has you confused with the other Italian guy, Benzion. I’m going to guess RJ really doesn’t know you too well - or your sense of humor.
RJ buddy, take a chill pill. Is Osteen your pastor? If so, I’m sure he’ll explain it all very soon. If I was a minister though, I’d feel guilty just flying business class, much less first class. Now if the money came from my investments made from my salary as a pastor (and not charged to the church, I wouldn’t feel too bad about it). He might have enough air miles to fly first class this time too. In any event, at least they’re not like Lucille Ball and Queen Sheila, who had several airlines ask them not to grace their planes.
December 20th, 2005 at 3:59 pm
bbb, the only reason Joel had money and could do those deals is because of Lakewood. Apparently you don’t know the whole history.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:01 pm
The DOTI are out on this one. Bring it on.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:09 pm
Wanna get rich?
Open a church or start a new religion.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:14 pm
#50
David Ben Zion is Italian? Now I’m really getting confused.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:15 pm
Like Al Gore did when he went to divinity school. First Church of the Perpetual Bong Halo.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
Wil (hint). It’s a joke.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:20 pm
#53:
Hey squawk.
Can I be the Pope?
S.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:20 pm
And if Wayne Delchafino can be Jewish, why can’t Benzion be Italian?
December 20th, 2005 at 4:21 pm
Now you know where your divine donations are going. I think I am in the wrong business, I should start God’s business, it has no economic cycle, every day is a good day!!!!!!!!!
I can see myself living in a 9 million mansion with a king size heated pool and a tennis court with full approval of the CEO of this enterprise, GOD!!!!!!!!!!
December 20th, 2005 at 4:22 pm
#58
It all depends on your mother unless you convert.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:22 pm
The Reverend Criswell, long-time pastor of Dallas’ First Baptist died a few years ago and was short-stopped at the pearly gates by St. Peter because he could not find Criswell’s name in any of his “good books.” Nothing under S for ’salvation,’ nothing under P for ‘preacher’, nothing under B for ‘baptising’ etc. Criswell screamed, well look in all your books…my name has gotta be there! Several hours passed and St. Peter returned to a very, very frustrated Criswell. Reverend, I am so very sorry it took so long to locate your name and deeds but I did, so come on in. Relieved, Criswell entered and muttered, “where did you find me?” St. Peter replied, under “real-estate entrepreneurs.”
December 20th, 2005 at 4:30 pm
Well he could have bought a G5 and flown private and no-one would be the wiser? Either that or he could have chartered a private plane…same thing.
What about the POPE…he *has* taken a vow of poverty…anyone wanna live in that kind of poverty?
What about Queen Sheila…she makes an (north end of a south bound donkey) every time she travels wether its by plane train or limo.
Regards,
Beach_Bum
December 20th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
And if Wayne Delchafino can be Jewish, why can’t David Benzion be Italian?
December 20th, 2005 at 4:36 pm
Sometimes this thing is so slow updating, I don’t know if my post took. Sorry for the restate.
December 20th, 2005 at 4:52 pm
Actually, BeachBum, the pope doesn’t take a vow of poverty.
December 20th, 2005 at 5:02 pm
Oh…then I stand corrected. Since that is the case, should we make the Pope pay for his own airfare in coach class?
Beach_Bum
December 20th, 2005 at 5:05 pm
Sure. When he goes skiing in Vail.
December 20th, 2005 at 5:10 pm
I don’t think the Pope (as head of state of a sovereign nation) has to pay to fly on Vatican 1.
December 20th, 2005 at 5:22 pm
Sedosi
#57
You got it
December 20th, 2005 at 5:25 pm
How comezitis that all these tele preacher’s wives have big hair? And the make up…..geez. And and and the old guys that look like they dip their heads in black India ink.
December 20th, 2005 at 5:42 pm
Say what you will about Joel Osteen. I read his book and it changed me for the better.Lated a good month or two before it wore off. Now i’m back to my old sinful goin to hell self.
I even sent them some money for the poor. I now get mail from them everyday. I assume they are trying to thank me. I havent had time to open them up.
December 20th, 2005 at 6:05 pm
Matt, would David let you host the show sometime if you were Jewish for a day? I don’t think your priest would mind all that much.
December 20th, 2005 at 6:14 pm
Gregg, always send money anonymously.
December 20th, 2005 at 6:25 pm
Ooh, good question, Big45Iron.
Benzion, what do you think?
December 20th, 2005 at 6:44 pm
If the witness thinks the same of the Olsteens as most of these posts do then I’ll go with the Church’s explanation.
I don’t know where I got the impression that LST readers were also, for the most part, KSEV listeners. For a minute there I thought that I had logged onto NPR’s website.
December 20th, 2005 at 7:22 pm
Right #75, I’d guess the 95% of LST readers are KSEV listeners. That being said, let’s say we are likely as skeptical of big church as we are of big government. Lot’s of dollars have a way of corrupting people and making them lose sight of what is important. You’ll note on my posts that I gave Rev. Osteen the benefit of the doubt on why they were flying first class, and didn’t comment at all on what was alleged by some to have happened. But as Headshaker #44 pointed out, there have been and are enough charlatons around in very large churches to make one suspicious. It’s kind of like finding a Washington politician who is more interested in doing what is good for the nation than they are in getting reelected. The Billy Grahams and Ed Youngs of the world can be pretty rare, as are the Dan Patricks.
December 20th, 2005 at 7:23 pm
This has been a paid political ad for the Dan Patrick for Texas Senate District 7 Campaign, Paul Bettencourt, Treasurer.
Thought I better say that just in case.
December 20th, 2005 at 7:24 pm
#44 Headshaker
I’m so busy shaking my head over what you said that I’m almost too dizzy to respond. Talk about narrow-minded, lumping all Evangelists into the same category. I don’t think I have ever heard of any charges or convictions being brought on Paul and Jan Crouch, the other three yes, three out of hundreds of large ministries oh boy.
The way the media is and how much they hate Christians. Don’t you think that if all ministries, especially big ones were doing wrong, that they would have already been torn apart by the press? Again Pastors and Ministers are paid by what the churches board votes on to pay him or her. How else are they going to live? There is nothing wrong with Joel or any other Minister using his or her own money to go on a vacation or how they get there.
#49 bbb, I was unaware that Lakewood did not pay Joel a salary. Thanks for the info and you make very good points.
I for one have no problem with my Pastor going on a nice vacation. We love him and he deserves it. He is a good and very honest man as I am sure Joel is also. If anyone of you are accusing Joel and Victoria of doing wrong without proof or all of the facts. Well then if I were on trial for something I did not do, I sure would not want you to be on the jury. I don’t think you would want you on the jury either.
December 20th, 2005 at 7:42 pm
I used to really like Lakewood I have been
their many times under his dad John. His door
was always open as a pastor. Now you cannot
even talk to Joel as your pastor you have to
his staff because he is to busy. His dad would not not of done that and his Dodie his wife does not
have an attitude like Victoria does..
I think this is just the tip of the ice burg
and believe this is the beginning of the end.
You cannot be a christen and preach without
talking and walking the same walk.
December 20th, 2005 at 8:05 pm
Lakewood is a Christian church, right? Would it kill them to have a cross in there somewhere?
But hey, it’s pretty popular. The church’s website proclaims:
That’s amazing media penetration, especially when you consider that there are 105 million households in the U.S. Wow! 190% of Americans love Joel Osteen!
December 20th, 2005 at 8:21 pm
…the only important to count correctly is the MONEY.
…also, I rarely listen to KSEV. I can only digest just “so much” political chat. Bring back Matt Thomas!!
Thank you!
signed “Matt”
December 20th, 2005 at 9:17 pm
According to some witnesses quoted by the Vail Daily News, Joel was calm while his wife was going bonkers. Henpecked?
http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20051220/NEWS/112200023
December 20th, 2005 at 9:19 pm
The thing that amazes me about the mega-churches is that I’ve seen as much leg and cleavage in the church, as I did as a youth playing in bar band.
Enough to make you scratch your cranium, is it not?
December 20th, 2005 at 9:27 pm
83 this is true n/c they think that is “dressing up”
December 20th, 2005 at 9:40 pm
“jah Says:
December 20th, 2005 at 9:17 pm
According to some witnesses quoted by the Vail Daily News, Joel was calm while his wife was going bonkers. Henpecked?”
Not henpecked jah, not christian would be more like it. Thus sayeth the scriptures, a woman is supposed to obey her husband.
I’ve not read the book but googled the Osteens and came up with a Joel quote from from his best seller: “In his book, Osteen talks about how his wife, Victoria, a
striking blonde who dresses fashionably, wanted to buy a fancy house
some years ago, before the money rolled in. He thought it wasn’t
possible. “But Victoria had more faith,” he wrote. “She convinced me we
could live in an elegant home…and several years later, it did come to
pass.”"
Wonder why Osteen is having to fly commercial? He should have his own Gulftream like the other mega-preachers.
December 20th, 2005 at 9:58 pm
Hey let’s all bash the preachers! Most of you guys that are commenting on the scriptures and judging the people that are trying to help people probably can’t even quote 3 scriptures. I don’t think anyone is having a problem with the successful and wealthy people in this world having a trip flying first class unless they know they are a preacher. Try reading your Bible about some of the people in the scriptures that were wealthy and were doing the will of God. Nobody is perfect, but let’s give these people a break. They are human too. As a preacher, I can say that we are held to a higher standard and we should be. But don’t get bent out of shape when a preacher tries to hold you to a high standard as well. Most people say “it’s my life, and I’ll do what I want.” Maybe you ought to find something productive to do instead of judging people that you have no right or authority to be judging.
Merry Christmas!
December 20th, 2005 at 10:02 pm
I used to listen to his Dad. I listened to Joel twice since then. His message is not the same as his Dad’s. Reminds me of Dr. Phil. In fact I just looked at Lakewood’s and Joel Osteen’s web sghts to see what they offered for sale. Not one book/cd/dvd/or tape about the Bible or Jesus or God. All self help stuff.
Nope not his Dad at all.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:03 pm
Those of you criticizing these people for flying first class or going on a vacation must be total idiots or jealous.It’s really none of anyones business.Preachers are people too.If their parishoners and congregation like and support them,it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.
For those of you that have a problem with mega churches,I have a solution to your problem.Don’t attend or watch a mega church.But do get a life.
Lastly, if you weren’t on the plane,you can’t possibly know the entire facts of the incident.Must have been no big deal if they were put on another flight.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:11 pm
Way to go george! Hey here’s a thought. Those of you that don’t like Joel or Megachurches better ask God to give you a heart change, because the last time I checked, there will be a whole lot of people in Heaven. I don’t think the “Us Four and No More” Club has their own Amen Corner in Gloryland. I’ve read Joel’s book and He uses the principles found in God’s Word very effectively.
Religious? No. Helpful and Practical? Yes
December 20th, 2005 at 10:15 pm
#78 - where did I lump ALL evangelists together? I said I don’t think Joel is in that category, and there are many others.
Also, I have a lot of first-hand knowledge having been “in the business”. A lot of it is simply disgusting.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:20 pm
There’s been a lot of flack given to Joel inferring that he gets megabucks from Lakewood. The guy doesn’t even get a salary from Lakewood. He quit taking any of the church’s money over a year ago, if I recall correctly.
The money that he made (to pay for the trip) HAD to have come (mostly) from the sales of his books. Yes, the books don’t quote scripture on EVERY page as many do, but they are down to earth and apply biblical principles to everyday situations.
I don’t believe that God meant Joel to reach the same audience as his dad, or other preachers for that matter. People who wouldn’t know a Bible verse from a hole in their head will listen to him for his down-to-earth almost folksy presentation. Once they realize it’s biblical, they get curious, they open their Bible, and wham…. It’s a different time, a different method for the time.
Like others, I’m concerned that his lifestyle has become a little too high class for the “common folk”. But God has a way of taking care of that, too….witness Jim Bakker.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:21 pm
Yeah, and when Jesus returns he’ll be arriving in a limo, wearing a $3,000 suit, lots of gold and diamonds, with a personal entourage catering to his every need. Oh, it’ll also be televised live and broadcast around the world. Yep, can’t wait, that will fulfill Biblical prophecy.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:24 pm
For those of you that have an issue with the money that Joel is spending, I would let you know that he is on record of saying that the first class trips and hotels are paid for out of his own pocket not the ministry. Here’s a thought for all of you commenting on his lifestyle, would you enjoy a first class ticket if you could afford it? Hmmm. Tough question, right? No way.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:28 pm
jmj
#89
Yes and I would ask you a question.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Timothy 4:3
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
December 20th, 2005 at 10:32 pm
Hey Headshaker,
Why don’t you send God an urgent message letting him know that he went overboard with the whole streets made of gold thing? How about the pearly gates or mansion that he’s building for every one that believes? Don’t get bent out of shape when God blesses His kids on earth. Try operating in God’s laws of giving and you might see that he will do something cool for you. See Malachi 3:10, Luke 6:38, 3 John 2, Romans 8:32, and many more.
As a preacher myself, I can tell that you Mr. Headshaker are either a preacher yourself or a person that is bitter towards the church. What happened to you?
Merry Christmas.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:36 pm
Squawkbox,
I can sit here and quote scripture with you all day, but I have a question for you: Have you ever been in a service at Lakewood? I know that many people are giving their lives to God and making commitment serve Him. Maybe Mr. Osteen is doing a good work. Who are we to be judging his life and his lifestyle?
December 20th, 2005 at 10:45 pm
jmj
#96
Show me one post where I said a thing about his lifestyle.
As a matter of fact I have been to Lakewood. Especially when Pastor John Osteen was alive. I have watched 2 services on TV of Joel Osteen and I stand by my statement. His message is not his father’s. His father taught Jesus and him crucified foremost. I see Dr. Phil in the current services.
As for your question as whom am I to judge his life style. I could care less about how the man lives. But I would be a damn fool if I did not judge his message. It is one thing to be a fool, but quite another to be a blind fool.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:48 pm
jmj
One more thing we are not to judge any man’s HEART, no were does it say in the book we are not to judge a man’s actions and words.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:51 pm
jmj, I’ve seen a lot of things up close and personal in the last few years to turn me off to certain churches and preachers.
Look, I’m not against Joel as a person; I believe him to be a good guy. But I think he’s a little lost, as ironic as that might seem.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:54 pm
Hey #97 Squawkbox -
What about comment 53? Wanna get rich? No doubt about it that he is different than His dad. Totally different. I know. I have his dad’s books as well, and I have great respect for him. I don’t think he should try to be like his dad. His dad was amazing, but Joel is great in his own way as well. His message does have a compassionate and down to earth tone, but hey, people need to be able to understand and apply what they are being taught, right? I think Joel does this well. hey, Jesus spit in the dirt to perform miracles and told stories about people planting seeds. He made is understandable and spoke to people in a relevant way. But hey, let’s just agree to disagree. No big deal.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:57 pm
I live outside of Houston and recently drove through there. I passed by Lakewood and just from looking at the outside I could see some serious cash was spent on that place.
But the thing that stood out to me the most and what I found disturbing was seeing Joel Osteen’s name plastered in big letters with fancy lighting on the side of the building. Is this Lakewood Church or Joel Osteen’s church? As only the pastor, I was surprised to see his name so prominently placed…like there’s no way to miss it. I found it a bit unsettling and I immediately thought of Swaggart and Tammy & Jim. Eek.
As a former member of the Mormon church (LDS), I know cult-think. And this place sure smells like it. I gave 15-20% of my income (Mormons are asked for much more than just 10% and it goes straight to Salt Lake City with no accountability) for many years like a fool, so when I see these mega-churches supporting these rich pastors I just feel really sorry for the poor folks who have no money but faithfully give all they can.
How sad.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:57 pm
Salvation is one big party - bring on the band. Forget hell. Forget works. Go get rich (no matter how), accept Christ as your savior - afterlife is good!
December 20th, 2005 at 10:58 pm
#101 - you get it.
December 20th, 2005 at 10:59 pm
Hey #99 Headshaker -
Let go of the past. I have seen just as much or more than you have. I guarantee it. I see it from a preacher’s point of view, and I know that we all have a full time job just keeping ourselves right much less keeping everyone else right. You have been at this since 1 PM. I think you’re a little obsessed with bashing Mr. Osteen. I hope you have a change of heart, and honestly I pray that you will forgive those that have wronged you. Because if we refuse to forgive and forget like God does, we won’t be forgiven. Take that up with God, He said it, not me.
Good night and God bless.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:01 pm
I’m not bashing Joel. I said I like Joel. But I think he made a mistake.
I started at 1 pm but I’ve been gone for the last 6 hours. I’m not obsessed!
And no one is more forgiving than me - believe me.
God bless you also.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:12 pm
jmj
#100
I stand by my statement on the get rich statement also.
What is greatness in his own way? What is that? Look I could care less about arguing with you. My point is this. I have no problem with anyone making money either a preacher or someone in the congregation. I have no problem with people learning to apply the proven biblical principles either. God said his people perish because of lack of knowledge. I have no problem of teaching be the best you can be. My concern is that when the message of salvation is lost amidst all the self help stuff, then I am concerned.
It is a big deal. We are discussing peoples souls here. I question the attraction. Is it the personality giving the message, the message of prosperity or is it really Christ being preached? I return to my post above and the two passages are quite germane to the discussion. But as you said our common ground can be to agree to disagree.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
#101 Gets It
December 20th, 2005 at 11:16 pm
headshaker
#102
That deserves a gets it too.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:17 pm
Headshaker…
You sure are opinionated. How about just a couple of facts for you…
1. Joel and Victoria were well-off before becoming the pastor of Lakewood. They were into residential real-estate developments which allowed them to afford to buy a house in one of the most prominent neighborhoods in Houston “ten years ago.” They have only been the pastor of Lakewood for six.
2. I am sure this has been mentioned before; Joel does not accept a salary from the church at all.
3. Joel and his entire family– wife, mother, brother, and sister– will meet anyone after any one of the church services; no matter how long that line gets they stay until the very last person who wants to speak to them has.
And for whomever said he apologized for saying that Christ is the only way to heaven, they were sadly mistaken.
Joel opened service and posted an official letter of apology Lakewood website after re-reading his Larry King Live transcript on the that said he does believe that salvation through Christ is the only way to heaven. Larry King is known for making people crack under pressure– and unfortunately he may have gotten the best of Joel that day. But nothing is more humble than a man who can admit his mistakes and keep going.
AND to whomever mentioned that Lakewood did not open their doors to Katrina victims were also mistaken… Least you forget at the time Lakewood had two facilities one of which was opened for hurricane victims, and every hurricane victim that came through our doors were offered $100 gift cards to Wal-Mart and other stores… Just because a man/church does not boast about his donations and charitable deeds does not mean that they do not exist.
Along with other “mega-churches” like Second Baptist we raised over $5 million in less than a couple of weeks to help cover feeding the victims at the Astrodome for a month.
Please check your facts before shaking your head at anyone…. and always remember that NO ONE is perfect but Him [Jesus] and we will all make mistakes.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:28 pm
jmj
I’ll take you at your word that you are a pastor. Post where your church is, I’ll come to your service and I would be glad to sit with you one on one and talk. In fact I would love to sit with you and your church elders and talk.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:31 pm
#109 - first of all, God made me this way - so deal with it!
1. Joel may have made money in real estate, but would he have been so successful if not for Lakewood? Please. He’s been pastor 6 years, but he was a big part of that church (mostly behind the scenes) his whole life.
2. He doesn’t accept a salary - how noble of him. If you’re implying that he doesn’t financially benefit from his position at Lakewood, you’re living in another world.
3. OK - who said he didn’t? I’ve met him, Victoria, Dodi, et al after service. I said I believe him to be a good man.
The bottom line is this: Joel should not be vacationing in Vail Christmas week. Period, end of story. You want to be his apologist, go right ahead. I’m entitled to my opinion.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:33 pm
Hey Squawkbox
Tell me this, What is Christ being preached? Are you saying that unless a preacher is bashing people over the head and telling them how wrong they are that they are not being effective? The Bible says that it is the goodness of God that brings people to repentance. Religion says to put people down, but God wants to lift people up.
Another thing, I know about souls. I have personally seen over 100 decisions made for Christ in the last 4.5 months in my own ministry.
As for the greatness comment, God has put greatness on the inside of everyone that believes. That greatness is also Jesus. Joel is great, special, etc. in his own way. Let’s not split hairs here.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:38 pm
jmj, congratulations on your ministry. I too would welcome the chance to visit with you and squawk to discuss the things that have turned me off from many that call themselves Christian (pastors included).
I’m not saying that fire and brimstone is the answer, but neither is wealth and material possessions.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:41 pm
You guys have a great night. It’s been interesting. I pray you all have a great Christmas and experience the goodness of God all the days of your lives.
jmj
December 20th, 2005 at 11:49 pm
jmj
#112
Nice try but no cigar. Your fishing and I am not biting jmj. No where have I said or insinuated that people should be put down to be brought to Christ. I quoted Paul. So let us not put words in my mouth.
If you wish to follow Joel Osteen that is your business. I have posed legitamate questions and concerns about his message and you have yet to address those concerns. I have told you precisely where my concerns lie and why.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:53 pm
jmj
#114
Back at ya.
December 20th, 2005 at 11:58 pm
You are definately entitled… but out of curiosity why shouldn’t he vacation Christmas week? Don’t most people take a vacation during Christmas week. I can garauntee you that he will still be at church this Saturday … AND Sunday Christmas day.
I’m not saying that being the pastor of Lakewood has not made him wealthier, but for him to already have been living in a $2 million house four years before assuming the role as pastor says something about his finacial state pre-Lakewood leadership.
The fact that instead of buying himself a newer bigger more expensive house after becoming pastor, the fact that he still drives a nine-year old car, and that he still plays basketball at the YMCA and not some ritzy country club, I think, says a great deal about his character.
There are ministers who go out and buy themselves yachts and multiple houses when they are financially able…. he takes his family to Vail for maybe three days and turns a sports arena into a place of worship with TONS of free services to anyone not just members… go figure.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:03 am
I never compared Joel to some of the sleazy evangelists out there.
You don’t get it. Go to www.joelosteen.com, maybe something there will enlighten you.
God Bless!
December 21st, 2005 at 12:05 am
I’m just curious as to why “he shouldn’t be vacationing Christmas week.”
December 21st, 2005 at 12:07 am
#119 - are you serious? Your validating my point by asking that question.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:07 am
And I’m an active member… I am pretty enlightened already.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:09 am
Don’t most people take a vacation during Christmas week. I can garauntee you that he will still be at church this Saturday … AND Sunday Christmas day.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:14 am
C’est tout pour moi!
We’ll disagree, but I respect your point. It’s easy [and I am actually there with most ministers] to be skeptical. I personally was not a fan of the “Joel Osteen Ministries” sign on the building, but there is a reason for everything, and at the end of the day I feel like he does more good, and to me that’s all that matters.
Bonsoire!!
and Merry Christmas
December 21st, 2005 at 12:58 am
[See my first message, #101, about being a former Mormon, etc.]
Some more thoughts…
Besides Joel’s name being plastered prominently on the side of Lakewood, his name is seen all over Lakewood’s website as well. Again, is this Lakewood Church or The Joel Osteen Church?
In the bookstore on his website there’s plenty of Joel’s self-help books available but NO Bible, NO Bible Study Guides, NO books about Biblical principles or people…nothing of the sort. While it may be true Osteen doesn’t receive a salary (I don’t know) it is definitely true that he uses the church to promote himself and his books. It’s not about Jesus, it’s about Joel Osteen.
Click on the Apparel section and you’ll get the message: “Joel Osteen Ministries logo hats, shirts, and other Apparel Coming Soon!” LOGO HATS? SHIRTS? WHAT THE…?! That’s bizarre. I can see a Lakewood logo, but Joel Osteen? If that doesn’t smack of Swaggart and Tammy & Jimmy, I don’t know what does.
Click on the Events section and you’ll see you can go see Joel in other cities for $10 a pop. Yep, that’s right…it’s going to cost you $10 to see this guy. And he preaches the same message as he does on Sunday but charges you for it. How nice for the poor folk who get by on welfare. Sorry poor people, no Joel Osteen for you, you’re too poor. (In a round-about way he even admits as much in the Larry King interview.)
Speaking of the Larry King interview, the one thing that stands out there is Joel actually seems like a decent guy. His wife seems to be a piece of work, but Joel seems genuinely nice. So maybe he’s just getting some seriously bad advice or else he truly is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Or maybe he’s under immense pressure to keep his wife in Neiman Marcus fashions. I don’t know.
Did anyone catch what Victoria Osteen said in the Larry King interview (which in light of recent events sounds rather funny now):
“You see, if you have someone in your life today, and you don’t like the way they’re treating you, I want to encourage you to take a look at how you’re treating them. If you will begin to treat them differently, then you will get a different response. In other words, say your spouse isn’t giving you enough love. They’re ignoring you. They’re not being kind and considerate to you.
Well, see, human nature is to give them a taste of their own medicine, to treat them the same way. But when we do that, we’re just going to continue to reap what we’re sowing.”
I guess Victoria reaped what she sowed on that plane.
My friend’s a flight attendent, and she said it had to pretty serious to be asked to leave the plane after the door was closed…no matter what kind of spin Continental and Lakewood want to put on it.
In his book, Osteen talks about how Victoria wanted to buy a fancy house some years ago, before the money rolled in, but he didn’t think it was possible. “But Victoria had more faith,” he wrote. “She convinced me we could live in an elegant home…and several years later, it did come to pass.”
I’m sorry, but I have a problem with that. All I see in those 2 people’s eyes are dollar signs.
Coming from my background as a Mormon, I now have a HUGE problem with people mixing faith in Christ (or any “god”) and trying to get rich out of it. But ya know, sometimes karma has a way of coming back around and kicking you in the arse.
December 21st, 2005 at 1:50 am
87: Squawk nails it. The guy is like Dr. Phil. And that’s fine. Dr. Phil is great. Let’s just not treat him like he’s some great theologian.
I’m sure being interviewed by Larry King is tough, but even that guy couldn’t get a mathematician to say that 2+2=5. If Larry King is enough to make Osteen’s theology that wobbly, I submit that his beliefs and ideas aren’t all that well thought out.
December 21st, 2005 at 4:33 am
kensi, you get it.
December 21st, 2005 at 6:12 am
Maybe she had to go to the pot and got the doors mixed up.. She’s human after all. Or is she?
December 21st, 2005 at 7:25 am
Larry King: “Because we’ve had ministers on who said, your record don’t count. You either believe in Christ or you don’t. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don’t no matter what you’ve done in your life, you ain’t.”
Joel Osteen: “Yeah, I don’t know. There’s probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you’re a believer in God, you’re going to have some good works. I think it’s a cop-out to say I’m a Christian but I don’t ever do anything…”
Larry King: “What if you’re Jewish or Muslim, you don’t accept Christ at all?”
Joel Osteen: “You know, I’m very careful about saying who would and wouldn’t go to heaven. I don’t know…”
Larry King: “If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They’re wrong, aren’t they?”
Joel Osteen: “Well, I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I believe here’s what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person’s heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don’t know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don’t know. I’ve seen their sincerity. So I don’t know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Joel Osteen has just denied his calling as a pastor and a minister of Christ. A man that cannot bring himself to say that Jesus is the only way to heaven should resign from the ministry (John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5; Acts 4:12).
Larry King: “But don’t you think if people don’t believe as you believe, they’re somehow condemned?”
Joel Osteen: “You know, I think that happens in our society. But I try not to do that. I tell people all the time, preached a couple Sundays about it. I’m for everybody. You may not agree with me, but to me it’s not my job to try to straighten everybody out. The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope, that’s God’s for you. You can live a good life no matter what’s happened to you. And so I don’t know. I know there is condemnation but I don’t feel that’s my place.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Jesus taught: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil,” John 3:18-19.
Larry King: “Is — have you always believed?”
Joel Osteen: “I have always believed. I grew up, you know, my parents were a good Christian people. They showed us love in the home. My parents were the same in the pulpit as they were at home. I think that’s where a lot of preachers’ kids get off base sometimes. Because they don’t see the same things at both places. But I’ve always believed. I saw it through my parents. And I just grew up believing.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Joel says, “I’ve always believed.” That’s impossible! There has to have been a time in your life when you made a decision to repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your savior. If we take Joel Osteen’s words to millions of viewers of the Larry King show at face value it is impossible for him to even be a Christian!
Larry King: “You don’t call them sinners?”
Joel Oteen: “I don’t.”
Larry King: “Is that a word you don’t use?”
Joel Osteen: “I don’t use it. I never thought about it. But I probably don’t. But most people already know what they’re doing wrong. When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change. There can be a difference in your life. So I don’t go down the road of condemning.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
Note: Wow! If you’re a Christian–these unbiblical statements from the pastor of America’s largest church should cause us all to fall to our knees in prayer for the Church of Christ and the shepherds that are supposed to protect and warn the sheep about men that preach a different gospel.
“At the biggest church in the country, Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas, Pastor Joel Osteen preaches to some 25,000 people each week — and sin is not on the menu. Osteen said his goal is to “give people a boost for the week.”
“I think for years there’s been a lot of hellfire and damnation. You go to church to figure out what you’re doing wrong and you leave feeling bad like you’re not going to make it,” Osteen said. “We believe in focusing on the goodness of God.”
…Osteen defends Lakewood’s ways, saying the lively and inclusive atmosphere is attracting a whole new generation of parishioners.”
…”It’s not a churchy feel,” Osteen, 40, said. “We don’t have crosses up there. We believe in all that, but I like to take the barriers down that have kept people from coming. A lot of people who come now are people that haven’t been to church in 20 to 30 years.”
(”Religion Gets Supersized at Megachurches,” Tuesday, February 03, 2004. By Amy C. Sims. Fox News)
December 21st, 2005 at 7:26 am
Larry King: “How about issues that the church has feelings about? Abortion? Same-sex marriages?”
Joel Osteen: “Yeah. You know what, Larry? I don’t go there. I just …”
Larry King: “You have thoughts, though.”
Joel Osteen: “I have thoughts. I just, you know, I don’t think that a same-sex marriage is the way God intended it to be. I don’t think abortion is the best. I think there are other, you know, a better way to live your life. But I’m not going to condemn those people. I tell them all the time our church is open for everybody.”
(Joel Osteen, “Larry King live,” Aired June 20, 2005)
December 21st, 2005 at 7:48 am
As a person who has only recently accepted religion, this whole thing troubles me. God doesn’t trouble me, people who are arrogant trouble me. Which leads me to my question for any of you who aren’t disenchanted with organized religion: what is your criteria for accepting someone as a valid leader in the quest for salvation?
Since only God can know the will of God, it sometimes seems to me that such an intensely personal quest (for salvation) is at odds with adhering to any organized religion. I don’t mean this as a condemnation of organized religion, it just seems self-contradictory to follow another human being in the personal quest for salvation. Or is it not really a personal quest? I don’t know the answers, I only know my questions.
December 21st, 2005 at 8:19 am
Before I get bashed on this, let me clarify my position. I am not anti-organized religion. I realized my last post could be seen that way.
At the church my family attends, I’ve heard our preacher say “don’t believe me, believe this”, while holding up the Bible. All in all, our preacher seems to be a very self-deprecating man. That is what I see missing in Joel Osteen. I haven’t seen Osteen in person, but I have seen him on TV on several occasions.
The mega-churches and glitzy approach to religion just doesn’t work for me. If it works for you and leads you to God, then great. If it doesn’t (as is the case with me) then I strongly recommend a smaller, more humble church. I do believe God likes us to be humble.
December 21st, 2005 at 8:28 am
Wow, I missed all the fun. This thread Sure brought some new people to the table here at LST.
Very interesting reading. I note that JMJ did not accept Squawks invitation to sit and talk. Very curious. Unless of course arrangements were made elsewhere.
Was it Squawk or Shaker that said he did not judge a mans heart, but could judge his actions ? I like that one.
No one mentioned the fact that they (the Osteens) kept 200 +/- people in a plane for two hours because of their actions. Now that would make me LIVID.
There has been discussion as to whether or not Joel makes money from the Church. I would agree with Shaker, he makes money because of the church. Also I wonder does he get paid for those personal appearances ? Bet he does.
Bramanti made a good point also. If Larry King can “trip” Joel up, then Joel has some issues far greater than we can solve here.
As to being jealous. Hardly. I have been to Vail, its nice, but not worth the money. There are much better values out there, lots of mountains with snow. As to first class, when I get bumbed because of my “elite” status, or have the miles,yeah it good. But a big waste of 3000.00 bucks (in this case).
Lastly, I like Joel, I listen to him and have read his book. I hate to see this, and am troubled when anyone gets too big for their britches.
December 21st, 2005 at 8:33 am
#131 Who are you to say if Joel is humble or not? What is the meaning of humble to you?
as for #132 who made a statement concerning the fact that I did not accept the invitation to talk with squawk. I must say that I do not feel comfortable to give out my personal info to someone I don’t know at all. I’m sure he’s a good guy, but I make no apology for that.
December 21st, 2005 at 9:14 am
#133 jmj,
“Humble” is a subjective term. To me (in the religious sense), it means a person who accepts that God has the answers and they do not. A humble person fully considers the effects of their actions on others before taking them. That is my opinion and is fully worth what you paid for it.
Who are you to say if Joel is humble or not?
A person with an opinion that differs from your own.
So how about an answer to my question in #130:
What is your criteria for accepting someone as a valid leader in the quest for salvation?
December 21st, 2005 at 9:18 am
jmj, with all due respect, that’s a lame excuse. Squawk is a moderator here, we have public gatherings to get to know one another, and if you are who you say you are, why would it matter? You’re a minister! Do you only minister to people you have run a background check on?
Please.
You wonder why I shake my head.
December 21st, 2005 at 9:31 am
.
humble (hum’ bul), see: Mother Theresa
You might try this:
Copy and paste this whole discussion into MSword, then…
Have some fun with find and replace!
Church -> Corporation
God -> CEO
Jesus/Christ -> Our first SpokesMan
Joel -> Joe-Salesperson
minister -> Shill
salvation -> Comfortable-Retirement
Then, you might consider if it looks like organized religion is a convenient model for central financial and social manipulation.
You might also consider if your salvation/401K/comfortable-retirement could have ever reallllly existed; considering the resources going out of the corporation compared to those coming in… especially if the company has no way to demonstrate if any retirees ever collected.
.
December 21st, 2005 at 9:37 am
jmj, I’ve been watching your posts with interest. I guess it really comes down to a matter of humility. Jesus could have arrived in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday in a golden chariot had he wished to. He certainly had the capability. And his followers certainly would have wanted that, because they wanted to see the Messiah as a great and glorious king arriving to save them from the Romans.
However, Jesus arrived to bring God’s message to the people riding a donkey. His message was one of humility and simplicity. No, we don’t all live that life. But those who would purport themselves to be carriers Christ’s message to the masses perhaps should live a life slightly less than extravagant. It would certainly give them a bit more credibility with the people.
December 21st, 2005 at 10:37 am
I find it interesting that women typically don’t listen to the wisdom of their husbands, especially if they are pastors. Then they find themselves doing foolish things and making him look bad.
Why is that? Why does it appear like they say with their words “Yeah, everyone, listen to my husband. He’s smart and wise and all that” but with lives they say “My husband is such a twit, I’m doing my own thing.”
The problem is with living by emotion and forgetting wisdom. But she lives with a very wise person. Almost doesn’t have an excuse. ALMOST. But since she has emotions…
There’s no reason to cry over skilled milk, or water, or whatever. And I understand the first class issue. However, they could have purchased a private jet, which is more common for popular preachers. First class is much more humble than using a private jet.
Still, I can’t even afford a skiing trip, let alone use first class to get there. I think about all the members of his congregation that choose to support the church and buy ham instead of roast just to afford to do so. Or those who’s children have only one pair of shoes, rickety old cars or no vehicle at all just to afford to subdue their own conscience about paying a tithe.
But Joel is a popular person and his family might be at the very least inconvenienced by the nobodies in coach. Or worse, they could find themselves in an altercation with someone who insists upon an autographed scripture verse. Nothing worse than insistent people when you are trying to get away on a family vacation.
December 21st, 2005 at 10:40 am
#137 - Big 45 - Jesus rode into town on a donkey in order to fulfill prophecy. Read your Bible and do some research. WE can’t just pick and choose what we want in order to prove our points.
Headshaker - To reply to your statement: Why don’t you give out your address and phone number and I will see if I can’t get in contact with you.
December 21st, 2005 at 10:41 am
Get the dirt here…
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/3538956.html
December 21st, 2005 at 10:52 am
jmj - email me at info@headshaker.com and I’ll be happy to provide any details you need. See, it’s easy!
Merry Christmas.
December 21st, 2005 at 10:59 am
#139 jmj,
Big45Iron’s interpretation of the Bible is less valid than yours? How do you know the extent to which Big45 has read and/or researched the Bible?
There is ample room for argument amongst Christians concerning the Bible. You state the “we” can’t just pick and choose what we want in order to prove our points, yet that is exactly what you have done. Everyone picks and chooses to make points. That is the very nature of point-making.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:01 am
Mike Martin, nice post.
“Which leads me to my question for any of you who aren’t disenchanted with organized religion: what is your criteria for accepting someone as a valid leader in the quest for salvation?”
Jesus said that the man who is led by the Spirit is like the wind, you don’t know where he’s going or from whence he came. Unfortunately, I’ve met very few people who meet this description and none who were pastors. Well, I can’t say none but none that totally fit the bill. How about very, very few who were on that path.
Most pastors are not led by the Spirit, but by their seminary, their denomination, their followers. Yes, pastors are led by followers, not the other way around.
If a preacher teaches the tithe is for everyone today, I close my ears. The tithe was nothing more than a tax for Jews.
If a preacher teaches that the Bible is entirely historically accurate and literal, I close my ears. Only relatively recently, within the last millenium did that belief take shape. Paul would never have written a single word to anyone if he thought someday his words would be assumed by all of Christianity as coming directly from God. “Some say they follow Paul, some Apollo, … I’m glad I didn’t baptise any of you… we are all Baptised into Christ, not Paul…”
I don’t look for Spiritual direction from religious leaders. Scriptures are good for instruction, historical accounts, prayer, a walk with the Creator. Walking in love for God, his creation and others leads one into fellowship with the Spirit. And the Spirit reveals all things.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:09 am
Hey Talents -
Nice Try, but not good enough.
What about 2 Timothy 3:16 ?
2 Timothy 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),
-OR_
Ephesians 4:11-13
11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ’s body (the church),
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [[b]full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ’s own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.
14So then, we may no longer be children, tossed [like ships] to and fro between chance gusts of teaching and wavering with every changing wind of doctrine, [the prey of] the cunning and cleverness of [c]unscrupulous men, [gamblers engaged] in every shifting form of trickery in inventing errors to mislead.
Hey I din’t make it up, HE did.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:12 am
#142 - I’m talking about keeping it in context. What is the writer really trying to say? We all can pick and choose the words and scriptures from the Bible at will and pretty much make any point we want to make, but sometimes it is really unscriptural.
I don’t want to sound nasty or mean-spirited, and if I have, I offer my apologies.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:13 am
Joel the news…
www.joelosteen.com/site/PageServer?pagename=NewsList
You’ll see a list of articles about Joel’s ministry. Interesting, no reference to the airplane incident anywhere. Go to Google.com and a totally different list of links comes up.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:22 am
jmj, I’m glad you use the Amplified version. So do I.
Now, how DO you define ’scripture’. How did the author of Ephesians or II Timothy define ’scripture’. Are they indeed the same?
I say they are not.
What God says is perfect. What man says is not. If Joe someday says that what I said is what God said and is therefore perfect, Joe is in error.
Jesus’s ministry pointed out many errors in the Mosaic Law and gave us a new law, the Law of Christ. The Mosaic Law brought death, the Law of Christ, salvation. Choose between the two, only don’t say there are the same because they are not.
Truly, your post was good, I have no disagreement with it except for the assumptions you make that most make to this day but never made say 1800-2000 years ago.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:26 am
jmj, it is true in Zechariah 9:9 that Jesus was fulfilling that prophecy. Yet we also can note that in Zechariah 12:10; 13:6 the Bible refers to the wounds in his hands, but make not mention as to the wounds in his side as does Thomas in John 20:25.
jmj, the whole point is Zechariah spoke of a humble king, not a flashy king. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy. YET, Jesus still had it within his power to do otherwise. Jesus had free choice. He chose to exercise wisdom and discretion. We would like to see that in our ministers today, regardless of the magnitude of their wealth or the size of their congregation.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:27 am
#145,
I didn’t really interpret you as being mean-spirited. No apology is necessary. You obviously are a religious person and I respect that wholeheartedly.
I am not a particularly educated person in the area of religion, and in my lay mind, it amazes me to see the variation of opinions that can be formed by so many different people all reading the same book. I frankly don’t know whose opinion is “correct” so I read and try to decide for myself.
The fact that we all feel so passionately about it is a good thing in my opinion. If we were disinterested, there would be no passion, and thus no discussion about God. It is my belief that God likes for us to discuss Him. How else would He stay in our hearts?
December 21st, 2005 at 11:31 am
jmj, btw, the ‘prophets’ and ‘teachers’ and ‘evangelists’ of today are not teaching the same Gospel taught 2000 years ago. The true gospel is very, very, very rarely taught today and certainly not by mainstream organized religion.
That is because the true gospel reveals their evils, their manipulative ways, their misleading. It’s because it leads people to walk in the Spirit vs dogma and church doctrine. It’s because it leads people to be givers, not victums.
The true gospel revolves around the concept of the Law of Christ, a subject I never hear any pastor address. You probably don’t even know what the Law of Christ is even though it’s referred to often in the new testiment. Do you know what it is? If not, you’ve never been exposed to the Gospel as early Jews and Gentiles were.
Do you know the shortcomings of the Mosaic Law? If not, you’ve never heart the True Gospel. Do you have an understanding of historical uses of written language in culture and religion? If not, …
December 21st, 2005 at 11:46 am
Talents -
I’m sure you’re the only one that really knows what everyone should be preaching. Why don’t you write a book or start your own ministry in order to help all the millions of people that are being led astray by all the “evil preachers” since you seem to have the “corner on the market”. Come on man, none of us have it all figured out. Don’t be silly.
I am really floored by your arrogance, and your attitude. I do know what you are talking about. I am a seasoned minister of the Gospel in full time ministry.
I agree that the true Gospel must be taught and preached. Here it is in a nutshell. Let’s see if it measures up to your standards. God sent His son, born of a virgin, He (Jesus) lived a sinless life, died on the Cross for the sin of the world, rose from the dead on the 3rd day and He now sits at God’s right hand and He is praying for us. Not only that, but He wants us to have a relationship with Him through Jesus. Salvation - a free gift for all. Pretty simple. That’s what I am hearing from a lot of men and women in the ministry.
With all due respect, I think you mean well, but let’s pray for these preachers that are not walking worthy of their calling, and let’s remember that they are human too.
That’s all I know to do. Pray and keep my own heart right. What more can we do?
December 21st, 2005 at 11:48 am
Well said #148. We need to be humble and kind. No doubt about it. I see your point.
Remember, Jesus is coming back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords in a pretty amazing and spectacular way and maybe even a little “flashy” according to Revelation.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:57 am
Yes, the return will indeed be flashy. I just don’t want to see today’s ministers getting a head start on God’s return. That’s supposed to be His show. In our temporal world today, the word of God through Jesus should come from one more closely akin to riding the donkey.
December 21st, 2005 at 11:59 am
#153, well said.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:14 pm
jmj, your understanding of the gospel lacks any historical or cultural perspective. Jesus challenged political & religious leaders of his day in such a way it’s never been done since.
“That’s what I am hearing from a lot of men and women in the ministry.” That’s the problem. Everyone is so much in agreement, few go to God to say, “I’m an open book, YOU teach me”.
And then, those who do, don’t believe what is revealed to them.
The one essential element in your definition of the Gospel was “Salvation - a free gift for all.” But salvation from what? How about salvation from condemnation? from legalism? from literalism?
And to what? Eternal life. Everlasting life. “Thy Kingdom COME” rather than “Thy Kingdom that will someday be.”
It’s more than a place, it’s a condition. It’s more than just good news, it’s the Good News first to a culture who was controlled by Rome and led by Priests.
Jesus, the author of the idea of the seperation of church and state, exposed Pharisees because salvation wasn’t acheived through obedience to laws, edicts and rituals. Jesus brought it all down to love for God and others.
I noticed you didn’t define the Law of Christ but I just gave you all the clue you need to know. Yet, the Law of Christ was ESSENTIAL to understanding the gospel. It wasn’t in your definition and, therefore, made your definition soarly incomplete.
Let me ask you, how many people who ‘accept the gospel’ are instructed in the absolute necessity of ‘love’ in their lives? But he who has not love, has not Christ and deceives himself. It wasn’t included in your definition of the gospel but it’s the foundation.
My apologies if I am coming across as arrogent. I’m certain some thought the same of Christ.
“That’s all I know to do. Pray and keep my own heart right. What more can we do?”
I don’t believe there is much more one can do but speak truth when truth is lacking.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:16 pm
Talent, have you noticed jmj trying to soften his tone and reconcile with us? Perhaps this is something we all can do here. What say you?
December 21st, 2005 at 12:19 pm
#150 How could the gospel have been taught for 2000 years when it was not written until at least 70 AD. And that is Mark, with Matthew being a copy and correction of Mark with the author of Matthew stealing 600 versus word for word from Matthew. He then changed stories like the fig tree to make the more magical changing the nature of Jesus. He corrected errors like misquotes from scripture changing the intent of the passage. Then he added birth, childhood and a passion story using scripture metaphor to guide him. He did this around 74 AD to explain away the fact the chosen people, the Jews had not accepted this story. That is why is the passion he developed is so horribly anti-Semitic. Even the name Judas means “Jew”. This was not lost on his target audience. He added in the contrived parts not in Mark about stationing soldiers at the tomb then having the Jewish Council bribe them to spread rumors about grave robbers. No wonder we had the holocaust in western society. Not only that, ask any Hebrew scholar, it makes no sense that on the eve of Passover that the Jewish Council in Jerusalem would drop everything to meet over the issue of this man named Jesus. Nor would a Roman Governor give up a state criminal to the wishes of the vote of a crowd of colonial subjects, lunacy and again contrived. The massacre of the innocents in early Matthew also shows how this author uses metaphors from earlier scripture like Exodus without. Such an event in that period f time would have left a historical marker.
Don’t take my word for it, read and compare these two gospels. They were never meant to be in the same room together, let alone in the same book. Then read the accounts of the baptism in Luke and in John. If some people want a seven-day creation, they need to wrap their hands around a new testament that is in itself a mass of contradiction. Paul only mentions the crucifixion, ascension, resurrection, and those he speaks of mostly in spiritual terms. He knew nothing of the gospel particulars and never speaks of them. Maybe because they were all invented later than his preaching.
So we can seek the truth and not waste time with falsehoods that generate hate.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:40 pm
Matt, this is a great discussion. Can you keep this thread from falling off so we can keep posting to it this week?
Thanks.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:41 pm
rmacevoy, you don’t speak around the bush. Sometimes people need that direct approach to get them thinking.
I believe an accurate understanding of the Gospel corrects much of the ‘contradiction’ in the new testement, but I know of what you speak.
Unfortunately, most religious leaders totally disregard much of what you just stated simply because they don’t have the courage to consider that any of it might possibly be true.
Indeed, much has been added to ’scripture’ for various reasons and much is misunderstood about ’scripture’ that has been cannonized.
Someday, perhaps, people will wake up to reality, but not until it suits the interests of the religious leaders that control the minds of the people.
December 21st, 2005 at 12:46 pm
btw, rmacevoy, you’re use of the word “metaphors” was well noted. Isn’t it interesting that certain passages are only ‘metaphors’ while others are ‘literal’. Who decides these things? Hmmm.
I believe a metaphorical interpretation of Genesis is vastly superior in it’s spiritual ‘nutritional’ value than a literal one.