Texas is now officially a fascist totalitarian police state:
More than 2,200 people have been arrested in Texas bars in the six months since the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission announced a crackdown on public intoxication, primarily targeting bars.The arrests included people who were drunk in bars, who sold alcohol to a drunk person, or a drunk employee on the premises of a bar or restaurant with a license to sell alcohol, said Carolyn Beck, a spokeswoman for the TABC.
The agency has used undercover agents before, Beck said. In a recent operation, agents infiltrated 36 bars in a Dallas suburb and arrested 30 people for public intoxication.
If public intoxication is such a pressing problem, how come this cloak-and-dagger operation netted less than one person per bar?
Fortunately, there’s an interesting little provision in the law:
(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the alcohol or other substance was administered for therapeutic purposes and as a part of the person’s professional medical treatment by a licensed physician.
Is there a doctor in the house?
Seriously, though, I’m concerned about the ramifications of this. If you’re a bar owner, and Johnny B. Wasted is staggering around, presumably you wouldn’t serve him booze, and you’d call a cab while he sobers up. But with this crackdown, you have no incentive to perform those safe, responsible actions, since his presence puts your license at risk. Instead, you’ve got every incentive to get the guy out the door before the fuzz shows up.
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32 Responses to “TABC cracks down on drunkenness”Search
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Matt, although I agree that this is just a little over the top, but I would much rather be arrested for public intoxication than for DWI. If I’m taken from a bar to jail, it is much safer for me and for others if I have no chance to get behind the wheel. Plus, the cost of defense is probably much less and they don’t take your driver’s license away. No, I have never had a DWI or a DUI, thankfully!
I would just like to know what TABC constitutes being drunk? Do they take little breathilizers around with them? The article says you have to be so drunk that you catch the attention of the agent. So basically it is up to the agent and doncha know they are all honest upstanding folks who would never make a mistake? /sarc.
That’s certainly true. Here’s what constitutes public intoxication, according to the law:
I don’t know how that’s been interpreted. Right now, I may endanger myself or someone else, and I’m sober as a judge. I assume it’s been interpreted to mean something like "drunk enough that he’s likely to hurt himself or someone else." It is interesting to note that there’s no hard-and-fast, objective line like there is with DWI. I’d be willing to bet some officers would arrest below the DWI threshold, and some would arrest above it.
But I’m no lawyer.
#1
BS
There are no tests for PI!
It is a cops word against (the drunk) you!
Police state is the proper word!
Matt,
Most states have some sort of Dram-Shop law, which makes it illegal to sell booze to drunk patrons. It is in a way, a curious contridiction, since a fair number of folks went to the bar with the intention to get drunk.
However, it is also reasonable to assume that a fair number of the patrons did not walk to the bar, at least ways in Houston; therfore it seems a reasonable way to prevent drunk driving.
The bars and bartenders that serve drunks should be fined accordingly and have their liquor permits revoked for repeated offenses. Not a lot of fun, but I view DWI and PI as pretty humorless.
We went to war in Afganistan when slightly over 3000 people were killed on 9/11, yet we kill many more than that each year due to alcohol/drug related car accidents. Should we give the “shock and awe” treatment to every brewery and distillery?
I would like to congratulate the TABC for cleaning up the State to such an extent that they have the time and manpower available to “infiltrate” bars and hotels(!) and spy on folks having a drink.
If they are reduced to such actions, perhaps their budget could be reduced next fiscal cycle, thereby saving the taxpayers money.
Good job done, boys
#3 lil mikey
It could be worse, they could move the manpower
down to the border and check and make sure that
none of the illegals coming over have been drinking.
Smack
#6
Heh, heh!
I own a bar, and the state has made it qutie difficult to be in business. With the fees and taxes, and the proposed raises in taxes that keep coming up, it is really hard to run a business and keep it above board. Most people do not realize that the tax rate for a bar or Restaurant with a Mixed beverage license is 14% (fourteen percent). Not to mention that we also have to pay 7.25% to 8.25% GST (General Sales Tax) on all non-alcoholic products, and a whole bunch of other fees (vending machine, pool tables, etc)
While I endeavor to not serve intoxicated people, sometimes it is difficult to make a determination until the person is over the so called edge. At that point, you slow them down, stop serving them or offer them some other beverage. The problem with the Gestapo techniques mentioned is the following.
If I have someone that is over the edge, and I keep them on the premises to sober up, I can get fined.
If I let them leave, and there is an accident, I can be held liable.
If I try to prevent them from leaving, I can be held for unlawful restraint.
Essentially, you are in a no win situation.
As was stated before, when a TABC agent comes in, who is “drunk” and not is an arbitrary thing. While I may think a person is not “drunk”, the agent can think they are and it is thus a fact. There is no test, just “they look drunk”. This also holds true for any law enforcement officer. It does not have to be a TABC agent to make this determination. A Sheriff, constable, HPD, Marshal, DPS, or an agent of the HFD arson department (yes they can also arrest you) can do this.
There are a good deal of agents out there that are fair, but there are, like any enforcement agency, a few bad apples that go over the top on the power trip.
Another thing that has recently been happening is the Sheriffs’ department has been targeting bars and arresting people for outstanding warrants. The scenario is the sheriffs’ come in (9-12 of them), cordon off the place and pull identifications, run the people for warrants etc, arrest them for PI, if there are no warrants for them and they feel they are impaired. Essentially shooting fish in a fish bowl….
Wow,the TABC looking for people drinking in a bar. Hmm. Next thing you know the IRS will start hanging out in banks looking for tax cheats.
Actually, the IRS does one better, they send a list of the cheats to banks and require the banks to find them.
As a former restaurant owner, let me say I have some direct experience with the TABC, and none of it was pleasant, despite the fact that we were never cited for a single infraction. The TABC is nothing more than a taxpayer-funded collection agency for the liquor distributors, and is widely notorious for its incompetence and abuse of power. TABC agents are gun toting goons, and have been known to carry out vendettas for their “friends”.
They have walked into bars and literally locked the doors and cited EVERYONE in the establishment for PI. It turned out this was done solely because some influential neighbors with a competing business wanted the bar shut down.
Another one of their favorite tricks is to send minors with fake IDs into establishments and get them to try and buy beer. They tried this one on us, but we were always very careful – the agents still came into the establishment (guns openly brandished) and tried to find something – ANYTHING - wrong. They didn’t, and left in a huff.
The last time the TABC came up for Sunset Review, the government tried to shut them down, only to be lobbied by the liquor wholesalers into approving them again. I imagine they are up for review again, and are therefore making a little noise so they can show everyone what a wonderful public service they perform. BALONEY! These incompetent thugs should have been shut down twelve years ago when we had the chance. They are about as useful as goose droppings on a pump handle.
Here is some of the wonderful bureaucratic stupidity this organization has come up with:
Any malt beverage greater than 5% alcohol by volume must be labeled STOUT, MALT LIQUOR, or ALE, even if it is none of those things. It CANNOT be labeled BEER or LAGER.
Any malt beverage less than 5% alcohol can only be labeled BEER or LAGER. It cannot be labeled STOUT or ALE, even if it is an ale or a stout. FYI-Guinness draught and many British ales fall into this category – Look on a can of Guinness for the word “stout”. You will not find it.
All labels must be reviewed by the TABC for “appropriateness”. This little service costs $1000.00 per label. So brewers with multiple styles pay fees for each different label. Dixie Blackened Voodoo Beer was initially banned by the TABC because they felt it had Satanic meaning. Upon hearing this, the Louisiana State Legislature drafted a bill that would have banned all Lone Star sales in their state. When the Texas Wholesalers heard of this, the crap hit the fan. The label was approved immediately, and the bill was withdrawn.
Texas craft brewers are forbidden from selling their beer both on-premise and in stores. Out of state craft breweries can sell their beer at their location and anywhere in Texas, thereby giving them an unfair advantage over Texas craft breweries.
I could go on and on.
The TABC is a perfect example of government we can do without.
Dan Patrick, are you listening?
Ron White on bouncers and being drunk in public:
How can a person be accused of PI when the bar is a private establishment? Like Matt, I’m no lawyer, but it doesn’t make sense.
My understanding is that by “public place,” it means something like “a place open to the public” or a place “accessible by the public.”
It’s not public in the sense that it’s government-owned, but it is public in the sense that anyone can walk in the door. Just like you could be arrested for public nudity if you go grocery shopping in the buff.
And they won’t let you back in HEB. Trust me on this.
Here is a report (by the Sunset Commission) that outlines some of the TABC’s more blatent stupidity.
http://www.sunset.state.tx.us/79threports/tabc/tabc.pdf
I’m not as think as you drunk I am….
http://www.arachnyd.com/david/sounds/DroveDrink.wav
http://www.arachnyd.com/david/sounds/DroveDrink.wav
Maltboy said: “The TABC is nothing more than a taxpayer-funded collection agency for the liquor distributors”
I’m not getting how the liquor distributors are aided by the TABC. How does this work?
olivbilb,
Do you personally pay all of those taxes or do you pass them on to the folk who eat and drink at your establishment?
Simple
Of course we could just eliminate those pesky food and alcohol taxes and raise the property taxes to offset the loss in revenue. No doubt there would be a vast groundswell of support for that one/
SimpleSimon,
Of course I pass the taxes on, and your point is what, nothing, in the end whether it is higher property taxes and lower taxes for businesses, or higher taxes for business and lower property taxes, who is the one that loses and pays the taxes? you are, that is the way commerce works.
Throwing out the “it will raise property taxes” or the “state income tax” arguments is rather silly, as no matter how, in the end, the citizens of the state (and some out of state) pay more taxes, not the businesses themselves.
what needs to be done, and it has nothing to do with this thread is controlling spending and making the people who mismanage or steal criminally responsible. i.e. Houston City politics, enough said on that.
If people want a fair taxing system, well in the liquor industry, why does the retail liqour store have to pay only GST, or the icehouse down the street. it is the same product.
in regards to Maltboys comments, it was not the distributors that wanted the TABC left in place, they dislike them more than the establishment owners, at least the ones I know. From what I recall, it was a while ago, they fought the disolution of the TABC, because the tax structure and burden was going to shift to them. In other words, it would be like most other states where the distributor collected the tax from the retailer, hd to keep track of it and pass it on to the state. Curerently, they do not have the overall tax burden, just their usual taxes (franchise etc)
16: In Texas, you can’t go down to the Anheuser-Busch brewery and buy a case of fresh Bud. There’s a state-mandated middleman, which keeps costs artificially high.
As in most states, adult beverages must be sold through distributors, and they’re strongly protected by state law.
For example, when a retailer buys beer from a distributor, he’s gotta pay for it upon delivery. No credit. In addition, wholesalers are granted virtual monopolies in their respective areas.
In addition, the law micromanages tiny details of the booze business. For example, the 345 mL can, which is a pretty common size outside the U.S., isn’t allowed. Therefore, Texas consumers are missing out on whole categories of canned import beer.
The taxation is also pretty ridiculous. If you have a beer and wine license, you pay the same sales tax as everyone else — 8.25 percent. But if you serve liquor, you pay 14 percent on ALL alcohol, even beer and wine.
And it’s tough for the wine business in Texas:
Our liquor laws are ridiculously archaic. You could still maintain safety and public order with a LOT less regulation.
The more I find out, the more pissed I get. It’s
too bad more people don’t get involved or at
least get informed.
The Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission and police in the Dallas suburb of Irving launched a crackdown on public intoxication, and last week hit 36 bars and arrested 30 people. But critics say they went too far when they raided a hotel bar and arrested drinkers who were registered guests and just planned to return to their rooms without driving. Dallas-based comic Steve Harvey joined the protest, saying that if someone isn’t driving, then “it’s only American to let a guy get drunk where he wants to get drunk.” But a TABC officer replied, “Going to a bar is not an opportunity to go get drunk. It’s to have a good time but not to get drunk.”
#18 Mr Olivbilb,
My point is two-fold. First, the government has to pay for what it spends and regrettably taxes are needed to pay for government. If we want lower taxes, then lower the spending by government. Of course we will have to elect politicians that are willing to spend what is needed.
Secondly, and this is the most important point so pay attention. Liquor and Sales taxes are taxes upon consumption. Consumption is something I can control to a degree. I (like most others) cannot freely move from one district to another to shop for the lowest property tax du jour. My home is a pretty effective anchor; therefore I must weather the property tax increases levied by my elected officials. If I had the choice between a system of taxation based upon property or consumption, well I will pick the one where I have some control on my taxation rate.
I will assume for the moment that all restaurants and bars pay the same sales and liquor taxes, which means they have an even playing field.
Your competitor has the same tax burden and the consumer then is left with the choice of menu and venue.
I see the full parking lots at restaurants I pass each evening. I must assume the “high” taxes ,which you complain about, are not exactly running the clients away.
Simple
I agree that this TABC tactic crosses the line.
Here in Austin the small business community has a PAC and a blog: Austin Centrist.
Some of us met resisting the smoking ban and other City Government policies.
Let us know if you are interested in joining with others to move government in the direction of civil liberties and fiscal pragmatism.
Simple,
I agree with you that a house is an anchor for the time you are in it, but as was stated before not all restaruants etc are on the same playing field. if you have an MB license (mixed beverage) and serve “alcohol” i.e. spirits, the tax is 14%on all beverages if you are a restarant that serves Beer and wine only, you pay 7.25 - 8.25% (depending on municipalities).
While I agree with you on the consumption issue, you should pay as you use it, that is a sydtem that will never fly here. it is similar to the systems used in Europe (VAT. The VAT tax is a tax on goods and services, that when I started going overseas in hte 80’s was about 5%, now it is about 15% along with a personal tax rate ranging from 40-60% (country dependant). Point is, governmental bodies just keep spending and never reducing or even thinking of reducing.
The Governor is having a special session to “deal” with the school finance reform, when the easiset way to save money is right off the bat reduce the redundencies in the school districts. I am probably going to piss off some school administrators, but there should be 1 district per county. and in some places 1 district per multiple counties. This in itself would probably cut 10-15% out of the budget needed for overhead, things like multiple HR personal, benifits managers, administrators etc. Large companies do this when they consolidate divisions or have mergers and realize quite a bit of savings.
But back to the TABC thing, these raids, in my opinion and that of other establishnent owners, is a means of raising revenues. The test for PI is pertty arbitrary, you don’t have to take a tox test, just look it and you can be arrested. Now, I know some of you will say “I can look at someone and tell they are drunk” and in about 60-70% of the cases, you are probably correct as far as the letter of the law and the limits (.08) are concerned, but can you look at them and tell if they are impaired, some yes, some no. I have seen people that were near blind drunk and are still funtional, but would blow a .2 or higher, and I have 20+ years of experience looking at people who dirnk.
You guys see a TABC Agent…tell them I said to blow me!
I did not agree until in my neigborhood they had parties at this store where people got drunk and were urinating in the open without regard for others. I use to get drunk and drive,I also would be in public drunk and did not know what I had did or where I had been. I could have gotten hurt or hurt others. I don’t know if it a good law I just know it is better than nothing.
Wow, I have never seen so much incorrect information in one place in my life. Most of you guys really need to get your facts straight.
Smacktle, if you’re relying on this blog for your information on this subject…you’re not getting the whole story.
Zilla, wineries can’t give directions to their locations over the phone? I’d like to see the actual statute on that. Let me know when you find it. I’ll not hold my breath.
Maltboy, where do I begin with you? TABC agents locked the door and cited everyone in the place for PI? Really? Could you provide some more detail on this? TABC agents had guns!!!! Oh my! State police officers with guns? This really is a police state. TABC minor stings where the minors had fake IDs? I find that hard to believe. Where do you come up with this stuff? Sounds like sour grapes to me. Sunset Issue 6 is my favorite
The Dude, do you really not understand why a bar is a public place? Your house is a private place. Do I really need to explain the difference?
Come on people, use some common sense when reading some of the stuff on here.
OK jeffrocop
So how about giving our uninformed readers some facts before flaming everyone?
What facts do you dispute?
Jeffro, I’m game.
Alcoholic Beverage Code Sec. 16.07(b) has been interpreted by TABC in that manner.
Time for a homebrew.
Squawkbox, sorry about flaming everybody. I listed a few things in my last post. Just seems like everybody’s on an anti-TABC rant here. I’m kind of a law and order guy myself. But everybody’s entitled to their own opinion right, however wrong they may be, right?
Zilla, I’m gonna have to disagree with you on that one.
jeffrocop
Fair nuff. You will note how I stayed out of the discussion.
Fair enough, you can disagree.
But if a winery owner is so afraid of TABC that he won’t even tell his customers his address, isn’t that a bit troubling?
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”