Why is it that the politicians don’t want to charge Illegals as felons?
by Rorschach · 04/12/2006 12:36 pmI was reading an AP article that was linked to by Right Wing News and I had an epiphany. I realized why the felon portion of the immigration bill is getting so much friction from both party machines. FELONS CAN’T VOTE! It may take a long time, but eventually under most guest worker/amnesty plans that are being proposed, those immigrants will become citizens, but if they were ever felons, they’d still not be able to vote.
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You really want Hillary in office dont you? If so then keep it up! You are doing a great job at getting her some votes.
There are crimes and there are crimes.
First we have to decide under what category violation of immigration laws fall, then only it will be easier to decide whether illegal immigration is a felony or not.
This is easy. Just adopt the same policy Mexico has for people who cross its border without documentation.
I dont see whats so hard about this.
No, Tejano…..illegal aliens being allowed to vote will get her votes. Not enforcing the laws will lose the Republicans their base.
They broke the law! Enforce the law! Employers that hire them should be fined and jailed for hiring them knowingly. No anchor babies. When they find it harder to get a job here, they will leave. Don’t just throw open the door to these people, they don’t want to be Americans.
I’m sure Hillary is getting a kick out of all of this!
Come to think of it,what party:
Doesnt want a requiremnet for voters to show picture ID?
Wants felons to be able to vote?
Wants illegals to be able to vote?
Thinks its ok to give the clergy “walking around money” to get voters to the pols?
Campaigns in black churches when an election seems tight?
Picks up homeless and takes them into the voting booth?
Wants voters to be able to register on the same day they vote?
Wants anyone with a drivers license to be registered to vote?
Wants tight restrictions on overseas military votes?
Doesnt want pol watchers in heavily Democrat voting locations?
Thinks a police patrol car driving by a voting location is intimidating to voters?
See’s nothing wrong with vandalizing a Republican candidates office,including slashing tires of Republican voters on voting day.
Yeh, you got it right. The tolerant Democrats!!!
Hillary has no clue.
Consider this possibility instead:
http://www.rightwingnews.com/archives/week_2006_04_09.PHP#005539
I nominate Tejano for the Troller of the Day Award. It’s all sound and fury, signifying nothing.
http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html
You know the immigration debate comes down to some really simple questions. It then falls upon each individual to decide how the feel about these questions, and then support those that think the same way. For example.
1) do you believe that illegal is illegal no matter the circumstances, and they need to be held accountable for being here in violation of the law of the land?
2) do you believe that people who are here illegally should be provided with social services that they are not contributing to the cost of?
3) do you believe that people who are here illegally should be collected and deported no matter the situation?
4) do you feel that borders to our country need to be closed and then the immigration process rebuilt to allow those who wish to come her and participate in both the economy and society be allowed to with easier rules, but stricter enforcement.
5) do you believe that the cost of living will increase if all of the illegals are no longer working for wages below the legal mininmum wage?
6) do you really believe that illegals are doing “all the work that americans wont” or simply that they are doing cheaper?
7) Do you think that employers who willingly hire illegals should be held accountable?
9) Do you really think that those that are here illegally really have the desire to become US citizens? or are they here to make 10 to 100 times the $$ they can back home.
10) Do you think that this issue can be better solved at the state level with Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California working together to seal the borders and sending the bill to DC?
Ask your selves those questions. see how many you say yes to. and remember, this is NOT about those who have followed the rules that we have set out with regards to moving to the USA. Also realize that this country has some of if not the least restrictive immigration laws of any country in the WORLD.. If you don’t believe me look at Mexico’s, England, Italy, Brazil, and Argentina.
OK, I’ll answer #9 above and you guys let me know who I can support that feels the same way.
1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes, but logistically nearly impossible
4. Yes
5. Yes, slightly
6. No, they’re just doing it cheaper
7. Yes
8. No
9. No, for the most part. I think they want the money and aren’t really concerned about citizenship.
10. In principle, yes. In reality, no.
#10
Put me down for the same answers.
Here are my answers to bweldon’s questions:
1) No.
No.
2) Illegal immigrants actually contribute to services, including ones they cannot access.
3) No.
4) Yes.
5) No.
6) Probably both.
7) No.
9) Yes, they would like to become U.S. citizens - they would bring their families here if they could do it. The trip across the border is dangerous enough for a grown adult, much less small children.
10) No - the international border is a federal issue, plain and simple.
#12 - so all the illegals in the Emergency Room with NO insurace and who DO not pay….HOW are they contributing? by raising MY health care costs?
I agree 90% with #10, my only contention is question #8. I think funding INS/ICE adequately WOULD help. but they are fighting an issue where influential people (usually employers) cause congress to put pressure on ICE/INS to look the other way. Withholding funding is one way they force them to comply. So the two are really the same issue, if they were funded, they would by definition be given some leeway to enforce the laws on the books.
correction Make that 80%, Question #5 would actually be no, because although the price of everything would go up, the money spent supplying services to them would go down, I think in the balance, the total cost of living would go down slightly, not up.
#14 Rorschach,
Yeah, I was a bit wishy-washy on #8 myself. On one hand, I feel that illegal immigration is an enforcement issue which would be improved by more/adequate funding. On the other hand, I see it as an issue of motivation. Illegals are motivated to be illegal by the availability of employment once they get here. As such, they’ll find ways around the enforcement we put in place. That’s why I’m not much of a proponent of putting up a wall. It’ll cost a lot of money, and won’t really do the job it was designed to do. Sounds kinda like METRO Rail, huh?
#1-Tejano,
Hillary will never become the President. Americans will not elect a known snake into office.
Very happy that a leftist is viewing this site. Tell your illegal friends that they are doing themselves more harm, than anything. Without us Gringos running the show, your illegals would run this country into the ground and end up sneaking into Canada, for the good paying jobs. Vicente Fox wants to get rid of all the people down there.
#13: They pay property taxes (through rent, usually), payroll taxes such as SSI and FICA (through a stolen social security #, which means they pay in, but can’t get anything out of it), sales tax, and use taxes (such as gasoline, cigarettes, alcohol, etc).
Illegal immigrant households create a combined net benefit for Social Security and Medicare in excess of $7 billion a year, accounting for about 4 percent of the total annual surplus in those two programs alone.
At the same time, due to the 1996 welfare reforms, they cannot take advantage of many of the same programs that poor citizens are able to use.
Yet, some would like to put them in jail for at least a year (at taxpayer expense), where they will not be able to pay any taxes at all.
#18 BW,
I see your point about money they are paying into SSI and FICA, but I don’t buy that they aren’t getting anything back in the way of social services. How much does it cost to staff the ER’s of hospitals where illegals go with their sick kids in the middle of the night and get treated without paying a dime? How much does it cost to staff public schools with Spanish-speaking teachers to educate the children of illegals in their native tongue? How much does it cost to feed those same children during their school day? Then there’s this:
You made the following statement:
The answer to that is quite simple. They are not citizens. They shouldn’t be able to take advantage of any social programs.
BTW, I forgot this part:
I don’t think anyone who is serious about controlling illegal immigration would advocate us placing them in our jails at taxpayer expense. I’d rather see them permanently deported at the expense of their country of origin.
#18-20, Standard and Poors did a study that showed that if there were no illegals paying into the system, the funding gap, (which is already very bad) would increase by 10%. but those excess funds are not making it to the state and local governments who have to pay for ER treatment, incarceration, education, and all the other expenses. property taxes and sales taxes hardly make a dent in thier economic impact.
If the Illegals were deported the funding gap would widen by 10% on the federal level, but the local level funding gap would close by a huge percentage. your increased outlay to the feds would be more than made up for by the reduced outlay to local and state governments.
If the illegals were made citizens BOTH federal and local funding gaps would widen immensely.
Mexico is blessed with so many natural resources, It’s govt should take their fingers out and try to improve the lot of it’s people.
They can do that , country can be one of the wealthiest in the world.
Mexican demonstration in this country should be directed at Foxy and all those responsible for dumping their unwanted on American soil.
Bobby
America is a soverign nation with laws. Being an ambulance chaser by trade you know what those are?? Right??
Tejano and Bobby obviously do not respect the laws of this nation. The majority of the American population do not want to be burdened by illegal aliens. They broke our law to get here. SIMPLE AS THAT!
They are here for money because their own corrupt country will not take care of them. Sorry, but they are not our problem. That might be cold, but it is true. If they want to become Americans, they are welcome to it. DO IT LEGALLY.
They have an unnderground economy where they suck up our resources and send their checks back to Mexico. “Progressives” (read communists) want them to be able to vote. This crap about them paying taxes is just that. B.S. as a second language might work in a courtroom, but the rest of us want it straight. Because they pay a little taxes makes them breaking our laws ok?? I wish I could pick and choose which laws I could obey.
Black Americans had better look out, because they are about to get shoved under the bus by the “Progressives” for more voters….
#18
“Yet, some would like to put them in jail for at least a year (at taxpayer expense), where they will not be able to pay any taxes at all”
Who said that? I never heard anyone say that. I have heard that they should be sent back. I have heard that any American helping them be arrested and fined. But never have I heard anyone say arerst and jail them, just deport them and make it a felony to be able to do so! Otherwise it is a civil penalty and they can keep doing the catch and release thing.
Just because your head might fit there, doesn’t mean you should put it there….
Troll????
http://www.spiralvisions.com/cuthbert/mexican.jpg
If the feds really wanted to crack down on illegal aliens, it would be simple.
All law enforcement agencies continually complain they do not have enough money to handle the violent and serious crimes.
I submit to you, that a significant portion of crimes against Americans are perpetrated by illegal aliens in the first place. Regardless of what the proagandists say, these folks are also costing taxpayers a huge sum for social services.
Assuming that there is AT LEAST 25 MILLION illegal aliens roaming free, and voting Democrat, if the police, and bounty hunters are allowed a $1,000 to $2,000 reward for each illegal alien captured, and turned over to the DHS, it would only cost taxpayers from $25 billion to $50 billion, going to police to agressively attack the root of our crime problem. Congress squanders more than that on boondoggle urban rail each year.
Also, this action will stem the flood of illegal aliens now invading America today!
fasternu426: First, I’m not an ambulance chaser. Such a statement infers that I break the law. It’s defamatory and relates directly to my career. As such, it is per se libelous under Texas law and opens you up to civil liability. If you want to be serious about following the law, perhaps you should start doing so yourself (and before you demonstrate even further how little you know about the law, remember that illegal immigration is not currently criminal - it is civil in nature, just like libel, so I’m not comparing apples and oranges here).
Second — and this is where your utter lack of knowledge of the law comes through — You say yourself that you would like to see the law changed to make it a FELONY to enter into this country without the proper paperwork.
Now, let me inform you as to what a “felony” is. It is a criminal act for which a person may be inprisoned for a year or more. Thus, you are, in fact, arguing for prison time for illegal immigrants, not just deportation. Under the current law, illegal immigrants may already be deported without the need to find them guilty of any crime. Instead, you want them locked up at taxpayer expense where their meals, housing, clothing and health care must all be provided for. In the meantime, they contribute nothing to the tax base, nor do they provide inexpensive labor for American companies already struggling to keep up with overseas companies. Congrats. You’ve probably just caused a couple thousand American workers to lose their jobs.
Same reason they don’t enforce our immigration laws now:
They are Cowards
They are Liars
They are Traitors
They are Sellouts
They are Hypocrites
They are Spineless
They have no Ethics
They have no Morals
They have no Guts
They don’t care about America
They don’t care about the rule of Law
All they care about is selling America’s soul and they could give a rat’s buttocks if America goes to Hades in a Hand-basket.
From Slick Jorge W Bush II all the way down the line.
Lying is what they do for a living and the Propaganda Pimps in the MSMedia are right there with them.
Bobby,
Seriously following the law? What part of illegal don’t you get? I’m in the legal profession and I view the law of the land as the LAW. Perhaps you don’t agree with the law, thus you’re comment?
Here ya go Tejano. From Hillary”
Re An Observer:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/sargevining/SPOTON.jpg
“I’m not an ambulance chaser. Such a statement infers that I break the law. It’s defamatory and relates directly to my career. As such, it is per se libelous under Texas law and opens you up to civil liability”
You don’t scare me counsellor! I’ve testified in capital murder trials.
Are you going to sue me? For my opinion? Aren’t we a feisty little “progressive”… I thought you guys were all about free speech… No, it only relates to pornography and abortion, not an opinion you disagree with.
From yesterday…. infers that I have cars up on blocks….That relates to my blah, blah, blah…..
“I only wonder how many of the cars shown on the t-shirts he sells are sitting on blocks in the front yard in front of his double-wide in Magnolia.”
Attorneys live off of the misery of others. Attorneys threaten and bluster and make lots of noise. Thereby solidifying my opinion of attorneys. Attorneys do not create anything. Attorneys are there to pick the pockets of dead men in probate court. Our legislative branch is made of mainly attorneys. Most of our problems are made by attorneys. Millions of babies have been aborted becuse of atorneys. Only an attorney could read the first and fourth amendments and say it gives the right to kill a baby. Only an attorney could read the second amendment and see that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed” doesn’t mean the people can own firearms.
“and this is where your utter lack of knowledge of the law comes through — You say yourself that you would like to see the law changed to make it a FELONY to enter into this country without the proper paperwork.”
MY-MY!
In my humble, ignint opinion, counsellor, making it a FELONY would prevent some ambulance chasing attorney from screwing everything up, as usual. Attorneys are the reason things are screwed up now….
What is the law if it is not enforced?
I used to be a police officer for thirteen years, and my opinion of lawyers is earned.
Now, I just make T shirts………….
#22, I can’t believe I am typing this, but you said something I agree with. Yes mexico, by all rights should be a very wealthy country. The problem is that thier constitution nationalizes ALL of the major businesses that operate there. Non-native (not even legal immigrants!) cannot own real property there. I can’t go down there and buy a retirement home there. I would have to find a straw buyer that would buy it FOR me and then rent it to me. Mexico’s government, including it’s constitution is what has ruined that country. Tax laws in mexico change on a near daily basis, and can be made retroactive at a whim. How on earth can anyone run a successful business if they don’t even know from one day to the next what thier tax bill is or what forms they need to file? Now the Illegals want to bring the shadow economy and corruption here.
#22 - Holy S**T. Rahman said something I agreed with again…
#31: I’m going to take the fact that you failed to address the substance of the argument and chose to rant against attorneys instead (while continuing to show further ignorance of the law) as a sign that you give up on the immigration debate.
It also shows how badly you missed my point about your defamatory statements.
#28: If you work in the legal profession, then you obviously know the difference between civil and criminal law. When I say that illegal immigration is a civil issue and not a criminal issue, then you’ll understand why under the current law it’s not the same as breaking into someone’s house or trespassing on their land (under CURRENT law - don’t start telling me it’s practically the same thing).
Bobby,
I’ll take the fact that you didn’t respond at all to my comment #19 to mean that you give up on the illegal immigration debate. We don’t have to be experts in the technicalities of the law to know the difference between right and wrong. I’ll take Fasternu426’s front line experience with the law over your litigation expertise all day long. Your elitist attitude displayed by this:
makes it quite easy to see why people generally despise lawyers.
“I’m going to take the fact that you failed to address the substance of the argument and chose to rant against attorneys instead (while continuing to show further ignorance of the law) as a sign that you give up on the immigration debate.”
YAWN…..
Attorneys are mostly to blame for this problem. The Dimmacrat party and a lot of Republicans are attorneys. Your profession is responsible for most of the problems this country is in, including and especially this particular problem.
You refuse to accept the FACT that illegal immigration is just that ILLEGAL. Either the law is enforced and obeyed, or it is crap. Obviously with your doctorate of jursiprudence, you should know that. You either ignore, or conveniently skip over that fact. Now, you “Progressives” want ILLEGAL aliens to become citizens after breaking our laws. Win at any cost….. You never address that, counsellor (while continuing to show further contempt for the law).
Your courthouse tan is showing.
“I’m not an ambulance chaser. Such a statement infers that I break the law. It’s defamatory and relates directly to my career. As such, it is per se libelous under Texas law and opens you up to civil liability”
And I will be waiting for my subpoena……
I triple dog dare you… Believe me, you don’t want to….. I loved testifying in court. You never have, have you??? Just in mock trials, I bet? Huntsville has a few residents that love me.
I worked the 5th ward, night shift and near the ship channel area. I’ve run calls in Denver harbor and all over North Houston. My experience with illegal aliens is way beyond that which you have under the glow of a flourescent sun. I also forgot to mention, that I am married to a hispanic woman. So as far as me being a racist…. Go work on your tan.
The Dude - your arguments are no different from any other poor person. It’s non-unique to illegal immigrants. Therefore, I didn’t bother. I was simply responding to the false assertion that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes - in fact, they pay as much in taxes as any citizen at their income level while placing less of a burden than those in their income level.
fasternu426: I’m done discussing this with you. You’re not going to receive a lawsuit (it wouldn’t be a subpoena). I don’t have that kind of time to waste on you, no matter how much fun it might be. I’ve had my say on the immigration issues with you. You do far more damage to your own cause than I ever could. I’ll just let you continue your ignorant diatribes.
You bluster and you make noise, but you never address the questions. ILLEGAL ALIENS ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND YOU WON”T RECOGNIZE THAT. YOU do far more damage to YOUR OWN CAUSE than I ever could.
The digrtession is not spreading light, but causing unproductive heat. The topic was the test and what that says about the policy response we prefer. Other than the hot heads, there seems to be general disillusionment with authorities and unanimity on all but Nos. 5 (net economic efect) and 7 (employer responsibility). As somebody who occasionally has picked up day laborers and knows that many of my regular contractors use them, I think I should be responsible economically for their temporary employment, including a fine if caught. It is a cost of doing business, and I’d bear it. Now, given the apparent unanimity, what do we make of our policy decisions?
Good questions and while “national security” is certainly a federal responsibility, I disagree with whoever said no role for the states or localities. I’d support Minutemen as well as border-county sheriffs, and I have some faith in giving Mexican military auithorities (not their corrupt government) an incentive. Kinky Friedman proposes the five general’s plan. Put $5 million into accounts for the five districts along the Rio Grande, and deduct $500 for each illegal local authorities apprehend and have to hand over to the Mexican commander (no furlough while deporation drags on). Each commander would get $1 million if his section was shut tight and the ones who allow a porous border on their side would end up with nothing. Since inhospitable stretches were few illegals cross might give a break to those in charge of policing that geography, perhaps in could be $2 million each for the commanders at Tamaulipas and Northern Chihuahua and only $300 each for those commanders in the middle. I do think the Mexicans have an incentive on both their Southern Border and at ours to restrict the flow. The political pandering to their expats aside, their most motivated workers are fleeing for better pay and they get stuck with those Mesoamericans injured on the way or otherwise unwilling or unable to make it into the U.S. By a very old account, something like a third of menial Mexican labor is not done by the indigenuous poor, but instead by Mesoamerican Indians imported by the big oligarchs to work cheaper than the prevailing local wage, as low as that would itself have been compared to picking vegetables this side of the Rio Grande.
The current “undocummented” system permits undue profits and permits exploitation whether by coyotes and Katrina contractors or CocaCola and Walmart. The perverse economic incentives of all concerned is what needs to be addressed more than some fictive 2000-mile Wall that will make us all safe from the “brown horde.” As with the Chinese caught in the Seattle container, where there is a reason to risk life and limb for better opportunities, immigrants will continue to do so. This is not just a Latin or Haitian problem, and there will never be a solution until we include others with “anchor babies” or expired visas (almost all of Walmart’s night-cleaning contractor’s Eatern European workers “locked in” the big box stores overnight).
And while a Return-to-Reaganism in the Patrick campaign was a welcome refrain, his demagoguing the anti-immigrant sentiment I found distateful. What substantively he had to say on increasing state (and federal) support for border-county sheriffs I applaud. His hyperbolic rhetoric I found just shrill, and I am sure it was heard as racist by those who do not share our views on the right to control our border.
Lets have more policy discussion and analysis and less cant rhetoric on the implausibility of returning to their homelands any sizable proportion of the millions here working and otherwise conducting themselves legally.
“your arguments are no different from any other poor person.”
Dude, you’re poor…. Welcome to my world
Faster,
I feel like I’m in good company.
He “didn’t bother” because it’s “non-unique to illegal immigrants”. WTF? Poor people who are here legally are apparently no different than illegal immigrants in his eyes. He apparently makes a lot of money using words that make absolutely no sense.
Maybe I made a bad career choice. After all, I could make tons of money with arguments that defy logic and any sense of right and wrong that common folks like us possess. Then again, I have to look at my wife and kids every day with a clear conscience.
You can sleep well too, and not look over shoulder…
#17. A leftist? Where?
We will see what happens! Only time will tell!
#29. I DONT WANT HILLARY ELECTED! I THINK IT WOULD BE A DISASTER AND THE END OF THIS COUNTRY AS WE KNOW IT. WHAT I AM SAYING IS JUST WATCH HER EMBRACE THIS TO GET VOTES! SHE WILL GET THEM IF REP. CONTINUE DOWN THIS PATH.
#32. You are incorrect, legal immigrants can buy homes in Mexico!