Wow, all I can think of right now is Wow.

I have to commend Mr. Benzion for even asking the question. Yes uncomfortable indeed. I have wondered exactly how this debate, especially the rights portion of it, squares with christian beliefs.

But then there are many positions that don’t square with my Christian beliefs. Hell not much the repubs do squares with My Christian beliefs.

This will indeed be a good thread, wonder if there will be any honest attempt to fit the “debate” into Chritian teachings.

Illegal means it is against the Law. We are a nation of laws. Plain and simple. If you break the law, there should be consequences.

The church wants the illegals for the same reason the gov does. They need a new revenue stream. The old one is getting ready to retire and die off.

Now that I think of it. The Church always says Jesus will return. Mexicans sure name a lot of their boys Jesus.

David;

Religiously, the first question you asked is covered under:

“Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and render unto God what is his.”

Jesus fully supported obeyance of the laws of man. His only concern always was and continues to be their Souls, and obeyance of the Commandments from God. This is something Liberals never understandin thier unending quest to heap blame and shame on people of Faith. They conveniently forget ALL of God’s teachings in favor of picking and choosing those they will obey or trot out for public display for political purposes in order to appear to occupy the moral high ground.

I have many political reasons for concern, especially with some of the rhetoric of the debate from certain individuals. But holding people to obeyance of the law does not seem to me to be at odds with my moralitly or religion, for the reason stated above.

Even Jesus told his people “render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasers” when he spoke of following the law and paying taxes. Christians who believe the Bible as literal have no problem with our beliefs and illegals. We are a nation of laws and since even Jesus told us to follow our laws, I will give them to INS who can give them food and water as they are being bussed back to Mexico.

No Conflict here!

Speaking of! WHY is INS or the police not bothering to put a stop to these mexican flea maarkets selling false documents out in the open that are so real looking no one can tell em apart! You can but a drivers liscense, social security card, green card and even birth certificates, its out in the open, they do not hide it, so why is it not stopped.

Maybe HPD needs to answer for this as well as INS

Hey sarge, we had the same thought line at the same time, but I must admit, YOU SAID IT BETTER!

“Render unto Caesar….”
While I am a reformed Christian, I have a lifetime of Southern Baptist teaching and Bible reading to fall back on when the situation demands it. I believe that Jesus commanded his followers to help the “lesser” members of society as though they were He. We should do both, follow the laws of Caesar (the state), while helping those in need. It’s a delicate balance. We could help the majority of migrants by helping Mexico. If Mexico were in better shape, less people would make the journey norte, that is in the best interests of the United States. This falls under “give a man a fish (welfare), feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime”.

“Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and unto God that which is God’s.” This is not about a belief in God or anything associated with religion and since when does the chronicle believe in God or Religion. They don’t care about Christians or anyone else except their hand picked group of murders, rapists, queers, pedofiles, thieves. illegal immigrants and the rest of society that they want brought to the front to show how they are mistreated and their rights abused.

The Catholic Church just like all Churches and government are always looking for a better and newer stream of revenue. Show me anything in today’s world that doesn’t run on lots of money and you will have found a religion where there is God.

By the way how did “hutch” and Cornyn vote on this - my quess is “gutless hutch” for it and Cornyn against it.

How do you– you right-wing, build-a-wall, round-em-up and throw-em-back opponent of illegal immigration– square your political beliefs with your Christian faith?

It is a fair question. Dottiem answered it quite succinctly in #2. Being a Christian doesn’t preclude being a law abiding citizen. The question, then, becomes “is the law just?”.

There are those Christians who feel that the death penalty is wrong. I’m not one of those. Whether or not it’s what Jesus would do is way beyond me, and any honest Christian. As such, David, you are just as much an expert on “what Jesus would do” as I am.

As a society, we attempt to make laws that satisfy the basic principles of all religions. That’s what I love about America. If our legal system was based on a strict adherence to Christianity, I really don’t think we’d be much better off than many of the Islamic theocracies that trouble the world today.

That’s the crux of it for me. Illegal immigration is illegal, and the law that makes it illegal is just (in my opinion). I base that opinion on my morals, not my religion. Morals and religion are not interchangeable concepts. I could be a person of faith who was morally reprehensible, or conversely, I could be a morally upstanding person with absolutely no faith.

#4) sarge:
It is short-sighted or ignorant to believe that only liberals “pick and choose” what Bibilical precepts to follow. ALL peoples (whether liberal or conservative) are guilty of that.
Sarge, you need to be less myopic and partisan; it severely weakens any relevant point you might be making.

As some of you may know, I am an atheist. As a result, I have a bit of an outsider’s view on the subject. I was raised in a semi-religious family but never really bought into it for a number of reasons, mainly logical. All that said, I see no contradiction here, as Sarge said, Jesus did not espouse violation of the laws of man. Illegal immigration by it’s very definition means that it violates the laws of man. Ergo, Jesus would not have approved.

I do not see how this can be framed in a “Christian” perspective. These are not refugees seeking asylum from a fascist dictator or fleeing a war, they are people coming over here to get a better job, get on welfare roles, or build sleeper cells. As for sending them all back, I would be all for it, if we could figure out how exactly to find them all.
As for that inflammatory political cartoon, It would be a little more accurate with Jesus replaced with a Border Patrol agent and the SWAT team replaced with a team of ACLU scumsuckers, I mean lawyers. I have heard of very few charities harassed by authorities for giving aid to anyone. I have heard of law enforcement officials getting harassed by ACLU. But then, maybe i don’t read the right news.

It always amazes me when those who profess “no religious preference”, point fingers at Christians, criticizing us for supporting a position that they don’t think is consistent with the teachings of the Bible. How could they have a clue when they do not know the Bible? So many times these varied groups take one “popular” passage from the Bible, or a misquote from some self professed “religious” and social leader, and use it to promote their twisted social agenda.
When we take the Bible as a whole, in context, we see that it is completely consistent with the teachings of the Bible to have laws, enforce the laws, and prescribe punishment for breaking these laws.
If all those who would flee their own country would instead stand up to change what is wrong with their own system, they would be better off. Their children would prosper in their own land. Great countries are not built by stone, mortar, and glass, but by hard work and sacrifice.
America stands as a shining beacon of truth that our way of life works. Prosperity is the prize for those who choose to participate in the process. If others want to come to America, they should show they want to participate in what makes this country great, not become another parasite that sucks the resources others have struggled to build.

#2dottiem: and the Bible does teach us to obey the laws of the land. Also, the story of the Tower of Babel teaches us that Nationalism is a Divine institution. Enforcing our borders is not anti-Christian. The problem is that Mexican nationals do not have the courage to confront and change their own corrupt government but find it easier to come up here and, in essence, steal what we have. That is what is happening. And isn’t there something in the Bible about stealing? #3 TBone - abslolutely. If the Catholic or other churches want to help Mexicans let them do it. No one is stopping them. But they should do it on the Mexican side of the border. And they should study Romans 13 regarding legitimate authority. Your observation of the cash that is being put in the collection plate by illegals is shrewd and true.
This concept of open borders/world community is anti-Biblical. Any good theologian worth his salt will teach this. Christians don’t let them use this guilt tactic. The U.S. is totally justified in sealing the borders.

Precedent:
Abraham, when approaching a city, told his people it was OK to have go and have trade with them but not to mess around and get back home.

#11 R,

Very good perspective in your comment. It brings me back to what I said in my #9.

Morality and religion are not interchangeable.

I was raised in a non-religious household. The fact that I really had no religion in my upbringing, though, doesn’t mean that my parents are morally reprehensible people. They believe in adhering to the laws of our nation, and they treat other people well. The fact that they aren’t people of faith doesn’t change the fact that they are decent people, just as I’m sure you’re a decent person.

10

Willie;

fkirst, I was speaking of the tendency of Liberals to jump at every chance they think they have to display what they percieve to be the “hypocrasy” of Christians. It’s undeniable. The cartoon at the top and one of the posts thus far illustrate my point succinctly, I think. I point this out merely as a service to others here on the Board, much the same way I would warn them that a dog was going to pee on thier leg.

In response to your #7:

The Law does not say that giving water to a man dying of thirst in the desert, or denying medical aid in a life threatening situation, and the depiction of it as such is a groos mischaraterization of the thype I find typical of the debate tactics of the left. The law merely proposes that we criminalize aiding someone who is ere in this country illegally to stay here.

As such, there shoul not even be a moral or religious component to the debate, and bringing it in such as the cartoon above, or in Hillary clinton statements is misdirection and mischaracterization.

“Liberals seem to assume that, if you don’t believe in their particular political solutions, then you don’t really care about the people that they claim to want to help.” — Dr. Thomas Sowell

Romans chapter 13:
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

God instituted the system of human government after the great flood, and has not changed it since. Paul was imprisoned and eventually executed by Nero, but he always obeyed the law! What we have is Someone from outside our country entering and disrespecting our laws and our way of life. We have been the good neighbor and provided for their need, however we are being taken advantage of. Now they demand what is not theirs.

On coveting your neighbor’s belongings:

Deuteronomy 5:21
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Micah 2:2
“They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them. They defraud a man of his home, a fellowman of his inheritance.”

James 2:2
1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

4You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

I’m pleased with the general tenor and substance of the exchange here so far… let’s keep it up!

The cartoon is quoting Matthew 25:35 “for I was hungry…and you took Me in”

18) Good thing our Founding Fathers ignored that passage in Romans or we’d still be British citizens without representation in Parliment.
God does not sanction all governments, that belief ignores all of human history and the rational thought that God blessed us with.

Being a Christian ia not equivalent to being a doormat!

#2. Such as Jesus did? Blasphemy! Should we begin to crucify people too?

As a Catholic, whose Church is opposed to any type of reprimand, I’ve got to say that #3, #4, #5, and all the “render unto Caesar” types are absolutely correct (especially, unfortunately, for the Catholic Church, #3)! Just as I support the death penaly (you do the crime is the crux of the matter) we have to enforce our laws (or repeal them, which is, possibly what the Senate wants to do–we need to stop them).

We are a country founded on the principle of religious freedom, but without borders and without laws WE ARE NOT A COUNTRY!

We can compassionately deport ILLEGALS, or let them deport themselves by enforcing the the laws on the EMPLOYERS. By the way, I don’t know that I could “card” all the people in restaurants I frequent, as the fake documents look so real, how would I know? That’s why large employers have to bear that burden (but that was a good idea MG).

17) That was not my point. My point is that all peoples use the Bible selectively. If not, then there would be no stores open on the Sabbath, we would stone adulterous women, etc…
We all us the cafeteria approach. Some of us just admit it.
Also, would you be in favor of really punishing those businesses and individuals that hire illegal immigrants? If I recall correctly, from debates past, you oppose this. How does that jibe with your current position?

#8. Why the attack on the Catholic Church? Is it because they are doing the right thing? So much for conservative christians!

God puts who he will into power and events take the course that he wishes. The American Revolution does not contradict the above passage. Spreading the gospel of Jesus is the main objective.

AMERICA FOR CHRIST - by Dr. David Gregg

America needs Christ–the rule of Christ, the truth of Christ, the spirit of Christ, the gospel of Christ, and the men and women of Christ. It is well known that America is the great cosmopolitan nation of the world; it is a fusion of nationalities. Hence the eyes of all nations are upon it; hence all the nations claim kinship with it.

The work of America . . . is different. Instead of sending out her colonies to distant lands, and bringing other peoples under her sway by conquest, she has opened her vast territory to be colonized. She has invited all nations to meet and mingle here and make one composite family, forming a world’s republic, and illustrating the world’s humanity. On her own soil, she gathers the children of the nations, and in her homes and churches and schools she trains them to be teachers of the world. This is an opportunity such as is given to no other nation on the face of the earth.

These polyglot populations are thrown upon her to be fused into one nationality by one culture, one faith and one liberty. The responsibility laid upon her, therefore, is a double one; first and supremely, to keep the fountains of her own intelligence and virtue and religion pure for the sake of the native-born in the land; and, second, to ply with all the forces of Christian learning and religion the thousands of unevangelized who have come to her shores, that they may send back to their old homes, in the form of letters and newspapers and earnest appeals, the blessed gospel of the Son of God to work as a regenerating and converting power in the different fatherlands across the sea.

All this being true, it is the veriest truism to say that America taken for Christ means the nations of the world taken for Christ; America a Christian nation means a mighty witness for God among all lands of the earth. My fellow men, our country is the battleground on which the conflicts of the ages are to be fought and decided. It is the valley of decision, filled with multitudes and multitudes. Every instinct of our being ought to say, “Let that nation be saved, and saved at once, which carries the world’s largest hopes and the world’s final destinies.”

In the Christianizing of our nation the Republic has its life at stake, society its order, labor its reward, home its happiness, and the world its future. As patriotic Christian citizens there is only one cry in our souls, and that is, “America for Christ! Christ for America!”

The above is taken from a series of lectures, Makers of the American Republic, delivered by Dr. David Gregg and published in written form by E. B. Treat, New York, in 1896. It is contained in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History, compiled by Rosalie J. Slater (c) 1965, published by the Foundation for American Christian Education, third printing, July 4, 1973.

Tejano, Jesus followed the law… all the way to the cross.. for you and for me.

#26) The conservative “Christian” movement is almost wholly Protestant. Not a lotta love for the “Papists”.

as usual, leave it to some jerk to make a feeble attempt to lay the blame (illegals) solely at the feet of the “repbs” or the “right”.
Well of coarse the dems and the looney left are the only ones who can conduct an honest christian bebate.
rj

It always amazes me when those who profess “no religious preference”, point fingers at Christians, criticizing us for supporting a position that they don’t think is consistent with the teachings of the Bible. How could they have a clue when they do not know the Bible? So many times these varied groups take one “popular” passage from the Bible, or a misquote from some self professed “religious” and social leader, and use it to promote their twisted social agenda.

This is pretty much what I was getting at when I made the statement that Willie objected to. Statements like this:

This will indeed be a good thread, wonder if there will be any honest attempt to fit the “debate” into Chritian teachings.

With it’s implication that there WON’T be any “honest” attempt to fit the debate into Christian teachings goes further to illustrate my point than I ever could myself.

The bible does not mention Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist…. Church isn’t even mentioned until well into Acts… I don’t believe Jesus even uses the word church…. God wants obedience, not a label. Catholics will be in heaven alongside all others who obey God and accept Christ as their savior.

#24. I agree with you, deport them compassionatly!
Just enforce the laws already on the books!

Jesus followed the law… all the way to the cross.. for you and for me.

If that doesn’t deserve a “spot on”, nothing does.

#30) Jerks of the world, unite!.
The problem of illegal immigration is definitely a bi-partisan issue. Both parties are corrupt.
The Democrats are pandering to a minority group among their following as a way to secure current and future voters. The Republicans are beholden to the businesses and individuals who thrive on cheap, undocumented labor in order to glean more profit.
A pox of both their houses.
Last time I read the Bible, I didn’t see any reference to either liberals or conservatives.
Let the “bebate” continue!

#28. Actually no he didn’t! He was accused and tried for Blashemy, which was illegal at the time! Nobody had compassion on him! Or did they?

#34;

I’ll give one of these

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/sargevining/ATTABOY.jpg

instead

#30. The right is about the only group voicing their beliefs in a manner that is not productive!

Why does this have to be tied to faith? I am sick and tired of everyone labeling conservatives as christians. Illegal - the word says it all, the people on the other side have a personal agenda.

#36
He was falsely accused of blasphemy and paid the price for it. The price was his life according to Jewish law at the time. Pilate found no fault with him, but he was executed anyway for a sin he did not commit. Like our sins… He paid a debt he did not owe, but he followed the law.

39. Both sides have personal agendas! You have to be a fool to believe otherwise!

Tejano doesn’t get it:

Jesus obeyed the law. Those who enforced it perverted that law, as Jesus knew they would.

sarge: you ignored my request to further define your position on what should be done to the pimps (er, businesses) who encourage illegal immigration.
Aren’t they the biggest problem? How would you handle them?

sarge and JO seem to have a pretty good grip on it.

There is NO LAW against giving a drink of water or a plate of food to a thirsty, starving person. This has been proven a 1000 times over in court.

This whole thing about pastors and priests being arrested for feeding a hungry illegal alien has been a red herring farce argument since day one.

I’m a Christian and I am all for rounding up as many illegal aliens as we can get on a truck, bus or other form of transportaion and hauling them back to the border. I think a 6 month stay in “tent city jail” prior to dropping them on the other side is even better.

As for those who like to cast disparaging comments out at the Catholic or other Christian churches. Get a life.

So they pass a collection plate - Big deal. Just because you feel like a cheap greedy jerk for passing your hand over it as you pretend to give , don’t attack the churches for asking for help.

The churches are looking to illegals as a source of revenue? What a stupid idiotic comment. Churches are being stretched to the limit trying to take care of these folks and their children like everyone else.

The churches mission, very simply, is to present the gospel to anyone in front of them and promote worship of Jesus Christ, God Almighty. They don’t ask whther someone is illegal, or a thief, or a murderer prior to preaching to them. It has been my experience that TRUE converts quit stealing and cheating and if they are illegal, they end up getting their formerly sorry tails home to preach the gospel to their own families back home. The GOSPEL gets the job done better than anything else no matter what social ill one is trying to cure.

Now if a pastor, priest or anyone else knowingly tries to help an illegal actually skirt the law and/or law enforcement personel that is a whole different game. The bible says they’ll go to prison like the next person and not to think they will get any help from God out of the situation until they have paid “the uttermost farthing”. That includes setting up safehouses and “anonymous” networks.

FINALLY, let’s remember it was DEMOCRATS in congress who blocked Rep. Sensenbrenner’s(sp) attempt to set the charges back to a felony in the bill he authored in the first place. The DEMOCRATS were the one using 12 million people living illegaly as chattle for their own political gain. The DEMOCRATS are trying to drive a wedge between the Christians and other conservatives. It won’t work large scale but some short term success may be had.

Even Pilate knew they were misapplying the law and wanted no part of it. He put it all on the Pharisees and Saducees when he washed his hands.

Matthew 27:23
23″Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

#29 The conservative Christian movement is mostly Protestant in America. Many of the Orthodox chruches in Europe, Asia, and Africa would also consider themselves Conservative Christians, and the are most definitely not Protestant.

I am not sure I can boil the Christian response to immigration issues down to “Render unto Ceasar.” We do have a religious obligation to not allow our government to violate the tenets of our faith. Then the issue come to not just is it consistent with our beliefs to enforce the laws, but do the laws directly conradict the teaching of our faith. Personally, I think our Nations immigration policies do not contradict the Christian core beliefs. I see it this way, if all the able bodied, motivated workers in Mexico and other Latin American countries come to the USA, no one will be left in those countries to help the less fortunate. Therefore what we, as Christians, should be working towards is raising the living conditions in those countries such that all will be helped, not just those who can run accross the border.

That shuld have read “attempts to set the felony charges back to a misdemeanor” above

#40. He claimed to be the savior of the jews! That was illegal at the time!

#44) The blame game against Democrats flies in the face of reality. Don’t Republicans hold a majority in both houses? If every Republican voted with Mr. Sensenbrenner and every Democrat voted against his measure, then the measure (through a sheer majority) would have been adopted as is. Right?

#42. Oh, and are the laws not perverted now? No not in your view right? As the Jewish rabbis justified their actions too!

#49 Right. But that doesn’t change a word I said.

#43
They are just as guilty, even more-so for encouraging it! As a business owner, I would not hire an illegal because I would be breaking the law. Doing a disservice to my country, and to the illegal immigrant as well. I prefer to not do business with those that I know hire illegals. If they cannot conduct business legally and ethically in this matter, how can they be trusted in any other matter? Someone who chooses which rules to follow doesn’t seem like a very honest person to do business with to me.

#52) Amen, brother, amen.
Thanks for the response, however, I’m still waiting on “sarge” to define his current position.
If more people felt the way you do, we probably wouldn’t be discussing this issue.
Once again, it’s all about supply and demand. Dry the jobs up (you know, those jobs that Americans won’t do?????), and the supply will necessarily dwindle. The pimps that hire the illegals are the 800 lb. gorilla that everyone (both liberal and conservative) ignores.

#44. Great post! I appreciate you coming to the defense of the church! It is true their main objective is to spread the gospel, to feed the hungry and needy. They dont care where you are from, what color you are, or what domination you come from!

Sadly I am stretched in the middle of this situation! For the entire time I have been trying to shed some light on the other side of this issue only to be attacked and called a LIBERAL!
I see the Dems taking advantage of the situation! And I believe they managed to split it and took alot of poeple with them! I seen Dick Morris on TV and he explained it quite well. The Dems have taken much of the hispanic community and their vote with them. They embraced the situation and I believe they will take the elections this year! It is sad but true, you think the President is weak now, wait and see his last 2 years!!!!

#48 He was the savior of the Jews…. When God’s will conflicts with man’s will, God will win every EVERY time. Jesus was executed to fulfill prophesy. He came here to be the sacrifice for you sin and for my sin. The Pharisees and Saducees (religious leaders and lawyers) saw him as a threat to their power. Politically he had to go. No matter the outcome of this immigration debate, Iran, Iraq, pick yout topic, God is in control. And I am glad,!

#51) Let me get this straight…God wanted us to submit meekly to our rulers (the British), but then He allowed a rebellion against that authority to take place? Isn’t it either one or the other?

#56

Are you sure you put the right number on that post?

#57) Right you are, that point goes back to your #27.
I need more coffee.

#53. Jobs that Americans wont do? How do you explain this?

http://www.kfdm.com/engine.pl?station=kfdm&id=14706&template=pagesearch.shtml

“Just to be clear $18 an hour is what you are paying them right? For steel workers, yes ma’am.”

How much more do you want? And where do you want them to get workers from?

#46) duhmoose:
I was discussing the American conservative Christian movement. Guess I should have been more specific. My bad.

#59) I want them to gather their workforce from legal citizens. There are legal steps to insure an adequate workforce (whether domestic or international). I want every American business to follow the law of the land. Expediency (or profit) should never trump the laws of our nation.
This is not a fight against immigration (although it seems as if it is being painted as such), but rather those who enter our country illegally.
It’s pretty simple.

Setting the religious debate aside…Will we see the teachers/administrators in public schools arrested as well?

And what about the doctors/nurses that provide medical services?

They ALL give aid to illegals.

*SIGH*

#55. I know God is in control, and apparently he is winning by compassion being granted on these people!

(”The Pharisees and Saducees (religious leaders and lawyers) saw him as a threat to their power. Politically he had to go.”)

You just described the morons that argue about culture, language, etc and the illegals are the threat in this case!

#61. Apparently they are not getting the workforce here, so what should they do! They are trying to get work permits for people! My point is that at $18.00/hr people still dont want the jobs! How much more is it going to take?

#62. So many poeple give aid, it is impossible to try to enforce such a law!
This mothers day I was in an area with the majority hispanics, I seen so many people of other races eating, buying, and socializing with the community there!! So I doubt the movement is all that big!

We are commanded to love God and all others.
Loving others and seeking justice are not incompatible.

Pursuing a world without borders is juvenile, socialistic utopianism. Regrettably, such a goal is the purview of many of the old mainline protestant churches (including mine), as they have twisted and revised the Word of God.

Inappropriate bashing of the Roman church is as old as the Reformation itself.

#59 Tejano, I posted this yesterday, (open comments post #75) and no one seemed to notice. I find the story hard to believe, if they are indeed paying $18.00 an hour.

This is too long to post, but here’s a link to a discussion of the American Revolution and Biblical principal.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=40

The majority of the colonists did not want to seperate from Brittain, but resisted when their peaceful entreaties were met with force by the crown.

I have to get to work………..

RE: 59) The entire gulf coast is screaming for welders. These guys are trying to find LEGAL help by following the law.

I am not really sure how this company fits into the illegals debate except they are an example of someone trying to follow the law. They would be a good case example during punishment faze of trials for other companies caught breaking the law and hiring illegals locally.

I still think they’re being a little cheap. Pay more get more. Plenty of companies are paying $21, $22, $23 AND paying overtime to make up the shortage of manpower for welders. I think the cost of housing them is factores in there too.

#33 Tejano
Your agreement with #24 really surprises me. You agree that they (illegals) all should be deported compassionately?

First of all, this isn’t a crusade against all immigration. The only problem is with illegal immigration. I guess those who say otherwise believe if the say it often enough, it will become true.

Second, the problem is with the premise of the political cartoon referenced by Benzion, that this whole problem is being mischaracterized by people who don’t understand Christianity. This is true for a couple of reasons: 1. Christians are not the only ideolitical group opposed to illegal immigration and 2. expecting immigrants to follow the law when entering the country is not inconsistent with Jesus’ direction to care for the poor, sick, and afflicted. To suggest otherwise is to engage in a game of NIGYSOB without understanding the the bigger picture.

Besides, do you think the Chron editors or Nick Anderson give a rip about what Jesus would do? If they did, their words may have more weight. Otherwise, they are just pushing an agenda, and invoking Jesus’ name in vain to try and lend weight to that agenda.

Oops, I mean ideological, not ideolitical.

#55 Faster - You got it right. God is in control. He is laughing at us as he should….but he is glad we have these discussions so if only one hears and his mind is changed to want to dig deeper into the Bible to find truth….it is all well worth it. He knew us before we were concieved..He knows who we are and what we think….He is mighty. He does believe in law and he has shown anger (money changers) and He taught us compassion…He doesn’t want us to harm anyone….just insist that our laws are respected.

#62) Yes, but those professions are following the law of the land. If we are to cut off ALL aid, then the current laws on the book will have to be changed.
The construction companies, poultry processing and produce companies, etc… that hire illegals are in direct violation of existing law.
Apples and oranges.

#64) The market (legal) will determine the wages at which a person will take that job. That’s called (legal) capitalism.

These are my thoughts, which will probably not square well with all of you:

1. Illegals are by defintion not “lawful”. However our laws define this and/or mete out consequences regarding same, including sending them “home”, as a Christian, I will abide by that.

2. If I come upon any human being, legal or otherwise, that needs food or water or they will die, and it is within my capability to give them food or water, I will do it EVEN IF IT BREAKS A LAW. As a Christian Jesus asked for us to do this. I also remember something back in my Catholic upbringing that set out something similiar in a hypothetical along these lines: if you came upon a person that was dying from thirst or hunger and you had the ability to stop it and you did not and they did die, it would be akin to murder and I believe, a mortal sin. Please re-read that sentence again because there are a lot of if/buts in there.

3. My oldest daughter is very close friends with a girl whose parents have questionable citizenship. This girl is not (”Girl B”). She was born in the same hospital my daughter was born in. My daughter and this girl and another girl (”Girl C”) are absolutely inseparable. The mother of Girl C and I have discussed together that if Girl B’s parents are deported, if agreeable to her parents, we would keep Girl B in our homes as if she were ours (which she is just about anyway) at our own expense. If these means I am breaking a law, so be it. Arrest me. Again, I believe it would be my Christian duty to keep a child that is a citizen of the US safe and give her the best opportunity possible to live up to her citizenship.

Sometimes your government and the directives given to you in your faith are at odds. The first Christians found this out right-away and were thrown into the Roman Arena as punishment. So conflict between the two is not new.

Discussion about it and the rationalization of it one way or another is not new either.

The only thing I am certain of is this: most of the time human beings are VERY skilled in rationalizing situations to meet their own worldview; that might not always square up with their heaven views; and most of the time they don’t even realize the inequity of it.

That means I could be wrong here too.

But at least I am willing to admit it.

(NOTE: The House Bill that initially went to the Senate and set this whole situation on fire, did penalize those persons that knowingly assisted illegals, including the dispension of food and water.)

#76) Ree-C:
Excellent post. It is (and always has been) a delicate balancing act.
That also goes for (convenient) religious rationalization. It always depends on whose ox is being gored.

The problem with President Bush’s plan Monday was not so much the plan as it was “Too little too late”. That and talking about the workers visa thing, “CUT IT OUT ALREADY WOULD YA “W” “.

I think everyone is tired of hearing about another plan. ANY plan. People want to hear about what we are doing already. ACTION

Every time I hear about a thousand workers and EMPLOYERS busted at a chicken plant or 151 illegals rounded up in Kentucky or whatever, I get a breath of fresh air.

Imagine the response to the President had his speech began something like this,

“Over the past few weeks I have been convinced of the devastating problem of an illegal population in our country which is at least 3 times the size of all US Armed Forces combined. So two weeks ago I ordered Secretary Rumsfield to activate 6000 US Guardsman. As I am speaking to you now they are deploying along the most heavily trafficked portions of the US Border. This force is slated to expand to 20,000 using rotating Guardsmen and active duty forces as we draw down our troop presence in Germany and other “old Europe” nations… The House and the Senate are working on other measures to secure our borders…” yada yada yada etc etc etc

Then and only then would the American people gain enough confidence in their government to even listen to any talk about guest worker permits (issued at the border or otherwise)

Does anyone know if Joel Osteen has taken a position on this issue? Made reference to it?

I’d bet we have someone who reads LST who works down at Lakewood, or knows the Osteens personally.

btw, registering and trying to post a comment as "J. Osteen" or some-such is a good way to get banned, so don’t even think about it, gregg.

#79) I believe Mr. Osteen (wisely) avoids commenting on political issues. He seems to lay low on issues like this.

76 Great post Ree-C

But I saw nothing about the House bill outlawing humanitarian efforts–only worries about the proposed law being so interpreted.

Whatever happened to separtation of church and state?

Honestly, Osteen, at least in my book, borders on a Televangelist/motivational speaker. I bet he studiously avoids political hot potatoes.

I’ve never heard him say much other than “God wants you to be happy and successful”. Certainly, he doesn’t seem to spend much time covering the essentials of the Christian faith…

Shannon (#81):

Thanks for your compliment!

As for your comment, I have noticed that a lot of times, “worries” about a proposed law being interpreted a certain way, come true.

For instance, the “Futile” care law that created a way to give Andrea Clark a death sentence was never supposed to make it lawful to pull the plug on individuals that were cognizant and did not want it. The “right to lifers” warned that the law could be used this way. The ones backing the bill “pooh poohed” them……. guess who was right.

Man what a bunch of good posts so far.

Contrary to popular belief I have a soft side when it comes to this subject. If it was possible to take in everybody that needed to come here for whatever reason, I would welcome them.

Unfortunately it is not possible.

Our survival as a nation depends upon this issue being solved soon or the ship will sink. Its simple economics. The Christian thing to do for the churches etc is to go to mexico and make it better. The christian thing for GW would be to demand change in mexico.

The Catholic church is a business that needs customers.

Believe it or not I pray for a fix that helps us all (including the mexicans) on a daily basis. I believe in the power of prayer.

I dont not believe in our government. Our gov, mexican gov, and the catholic church all have agendas. None of which at present are about taking care of people.

Government is inherently corrupt.

God has a plan…

#62

The gov is the biggest provider of aid to illegals.

#82 navymom

Just what I’ve been thinking all through this thread and that’s why we have it. Most religious
people are good and righteous, but what happens if a nut job ends up in the whitehouse and expouses religious belief as policy… oh wait, that’s what they are doing in Iran! Nevermind.

I agree with Daniel, you have to wonder why our US
government does not hold Mexico accountable? We
gots to make it right in Mexico before they stop trying to come here.

#66. I am not saying not to have borders, nor enforce the law! But many comments about the national guard shooting people, placing tanks on the border to fire on people is just wrong! And it is sad to see someone claiming to be a Christian proposing such atrocities!

#79 DB

I wouldn’t rely on Osteen as an authority on proper Christian doctrine.

#67. Why do you find it hard to believe? Do you know how much money they make at the refineries in Pasadena? Up to $30/hr, and yes they pay taxes like everyone else! I don’t even make that much and I have a college degree! lol so how much more do Americans want?

#78

Spot on.

#69. Sure combination welders can make up to $30/hr, most shops are only stick or mig welders! So the $18.00/hr is about right!

I don’t want to side-track the discussion too much into Osteen’s theology… I just picked him because he’s (1) well known; (2) from the area; and (3) seems awfully gosh darn nice.

Thought exercise– let’s imagine the law changes so that LITERALLY the 10 million illegals now here(let’s not quibble numbers) are to be deported.

Imagine that professional law enforcement– for whatever reason– wasn’t able to handle the job itself.

Would YOU, PERSONALLY, be able to enter someone’s house, grab them– their children, their grandmother, etc.– and drag them against their will on to a bus, to be deported?

If it was up to you, PERSONALLY to do the job, would you allow them to gather their possessions and property first, or simply haul them off right away and then hold the world’s biggest garage sale?

Can you picture Joel Osteen doing this? Your pastor/priest?

Would the proof-text “Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and render unto God what is his” REALLY outweigh any pangs of religiously-informed conscience you might have about bringing such suffering to ACTUAL human beings? Assuming the only actual crime they’ve committed was failing to get our government’s permission to live on this side of the border?

I’m not necessarily taking a position here… just trying to shake up the debate and get a better understanding of where all of you stand.

#70. Yes I do, I am not arguing for amnesty!!! I dont want Amnesty!!! But if the country would simply enforce the laws on the books, PROBLEM SOLVED!

What I disagree with is the vile comments that go around, mostly from the Republicans!
I also realize the need for immigrants and I have personally seen the obstacles involved with aquiring citizenship!

Look, the problem is there is no right and wrong answer. It’s what you believe. It’s like Dude said about the death penalty.

Look no further than the story of Jesus’ birth to determine what Jesus would do. Does that apply to 2006? No one can answer that with an absolute, no-way-to-argue, response.

These are different times, and that’s why we need the Second Coming, for clarification purposes.

David, that’s why I suggested we deport them compassionately, but drying up the sources of income, at which point they would go back (and fewer people would come across) because it is cheaper to live there than here.

If the Senate follows through with their current plans to allow up to 200 MILLION to LEGALLY immigrate in the next 25 years, we will not even recognize this country.

I wouldn’t go into anyone’s house to take them away, but I could see myself strongly encouraging assimilation (by teaching English, and history, and capitalism).

This wave of ILLEGALS, and those to come, is an INVASION, pure and simple; it is just more subtle than previous conflicts (here and around the world).

#76. Excellent Post!! You are a true Christian!

#94. How could you even suggest such a thing? It seems irresponsible to me for you to take this stance!

“These are different times, and that’s why we need the Second Coming, for clarification purposes.”

Couldn’t have said it better Shakey……

David,

The question and points are good but a nation without borders is nothing.

If our people felt safe and comfortable (in every extension of the words) with open borders then we would have them.

We don’t. The law prescribes certain methods for immigration; people are breaking those laws. Everyone understands and has compassion on the fact that life sucks where they come from. None the less, we want the government to enforce the laws.

The worst part about the lack of enforcement is that peolpe are going to get worked into a fervor and BAD things will happen.

Bad laws will end up getting passed instead of just enforcing the laws we have.

Once enforcement finally shifts from lax to hot it is almost WITHOUT DOUBT that some US Citizens will get caught up and be eroneously deported. Just wait for the stink on that one!!!

An unsafe environment begins to foment for Americans who have dark skinned plus they constant feel they have t interject “… and I was born here” into half their conversations. That’s not fair to this group of Americans.

People are more irate with the Government for refusing to enforce the laws (even at the level which we are capable) than they are with the people who are breaking the laws.

It’s like gun laws. We don’t need MORE laws to tangle up the good, we need more enforcement to catch the bad.

#99 I’m not suggesting it. I’m asking people to really think about the consequences of their positions.

I’m hearing out in the world a lot of advocacy for the physical deportation of 10 million human beings from this country.

Rather than have people continue to debate this in the abstract, I’m asking them to personalize it– to really imagine it was THEM who had to carry out such a task.

Would they be prepared to follow through? Or is it only a good idea if it has to be done by somebody else?

Not advocating– concentrating the mind.

For the record. I had not even read 95 when I posted 101. Compare and see if I am not right…

Tejano is under attack in his own country because the government won’t enforce the laws we have.

Good post Tejano

If you’re gonna load up ten million people and deposit them at the border you better have more than a few thousand BP’s, Guardsmen and sheriffs down there.

It ain’t gonna happen folks. It needs to be an orderly process whereby the incentives for staying are removed, as so many here have eloquently advocated.

My pastors would not participate. One of them is one of those “no borders” utopians—I’m pretty sure.

David,

Would YOU, PERSONALLY, be able to enter someone’s house, grab them– their children, their grandmother, etc.– and drag them against their will on to a bus, to be deported?

To be 100% completely honest, I could not. Nor could I refuse someone food or water (if I had it) to save their life, even if they were an illegal. I guess that’s really why I favor punishing employers for hiring illegals much more so than I favor building fences or deporting illegals or anything else. We’ve made it possible for illegals to prosper here, so we need to fix ourselves, not the illegals.

The whole situation reminds me of a kid I knew growing up. His dad smoked dope around him and even with him the whole time he was a kid. The kid smoked dope himself, because his dad allowed it. One day, the dad up and decides he’s going to quit smoking dope. Of course he thinks the son should just immediately follow suit. Well, guess what? It didn’t work that way. Dad gets all in an uproar and acts like the kid is a three headed monster because he still smokes pot. The long and short of it is the kid wound up getting forcibly sent to a rehab.

Now, it’s great that the dad finally realized what he was doing was wrong. But, I always felt like he was completely remiss in failing to address the underlying reason why the kid thought it was ok to smoke pot in the first place.

That’s why I say we need to fix ourselves. We’ve addicted ourselves to illegal immigration, and just like that rehab center didn’t work for my young friend, bui