Ci-vil-ian: n.
1. A person following the persuits of civilian life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police.
2. A specialist in Roman or civil law.
Now, the news media have constantly been using the word “Civilian” to describe the women and children that were killed or injured in Israel’s attacks on Hezbollah positions. This makes me mad as hell. These people were there voluntarily, they were there because they support Hezbollah. They are de-facto members of Hezbollah, if not actual members. The kids were there because the parents PUT THEM THERE.
In point of fact there are no civilian casualties in Lebanon because there are no civilians still in the war zone. Everyone still there are in fact hezbollah members either by word or by deed.
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Exactly right, Rorschach. The sad fact is many seemingly intelligent people buy into the lie. How do you combat that?
I wonder how long it will be before the MSM stops using “civilians” and changes to “sympathizers” in their coverage.
I won’t be holding my breath…
Why was this ALL women and kids? Where were the men? Chickens . This thing stinks like human shields to me.
How many of us would have gotten our families out immediately? The IDF has been dropping leaflets saying “get out we’re going to bomb the crap out of this place”. I wonder how many are there because Hizballah is not allowing them to leave? Which would make Hizballah even more culpable for using their own as human shields. Another example of cowardly muslims hiding behind their women and children. They want the little broken bodies of their own children to be shown on TV to make the IDF look bad when in fact they are the murderers. I would not intentionally put my children in harms way to make a political point. I wonder if there is any love at all in the heart of a muslim? I don’t see it by their actions, especially in the way they treat their own. If you’re muslim, sorry, but please prove me wrong……….
Obviously, we’re nowhere close to peace.
Tactical nuclear weapons fired from an eight inch howitzer has a range of 20 miles, a crispy critter radius of 300 meters and after 30 minutes following the detonation you can go in to have lunch in the area. With the above information presented what is the depth to which the heat will travel from the detonation to explode the Hezbollah rockets?
Solution to problem of Hezbollah and the rockets: Place the artillery at the Lebanese-Israeli border and back up 20 miles for 2nd row of artillery. Begin firing salvos moving the back row forward 300 meters and repeat process until area is secure. Place radioactive water in all areas where Hezbollah rockets are found and move back to Lebanese-Israeli border. Remember 50 to 100 rads is lethal as the meat falls off the bones. It takes 600 rads to cause instant death and 1000 to cause harm to reproductive organs - you are dead long before birth defects would occur. Repeat in new areas as problems begin. Who do you think made the Patriot missile effective - Israel - the US may have invented the concept but Israel perfected it.
Anyone recall what happened here in Houston when it was THOUGHT that Rita MIGHT hit Houston? The largest peacetime evacuation EVER. and that was just a friggin storm. if someone started dropping leaflets telling me to evacuate because they were going to carpet bomb the place you can bet your “small supporter” that I would have grabbed my wife and kids and the dogs and high-tailed it north.
Where is the world’s condemnation of Hezbollah missle’s killing “civilians” in Isreal??? What’s the matter, the body count not high enough?? No the liberal press wants the US and Isreal to look bad. It still amazes me the given the number of Jews, as opposed to Arabs, in the US, that Isreal is not getting better or balanced press coverage!!
This document is in the wrong and do you know why ????
Because if you say that the civilians dead in lebanon are a little point of this conflict because they supported the hezbollah that means that you’ve got the same mind of the terrorists.
In fact the terrorists kill civilians jews and americans because they consider the governement from israel and the american governement like ennemies and the american civilians and the civilians jews support their governement no ???
So you think exactly like the muslims terrorists because you want to make up a reason that It doesn’t matter if those Lebaneses civilians are killed because they support the ennemies of the USA and Israel ?
NO we have to blam the hezbollah for the civilians they killed in Israel and the same thing ofr israel that they made mistakes with their planes and then killed civilians lebaneses
Maybe now all the Lincoln idolaters and the “union is my God” types understand what being the recipient of Grant, Sherman, Sheridian, et al, “leaving the Southerenrs nothing but teras in their eyes” meant for Southern civilians.
Edd made a comment about Israelis living like rats.
Hmm. Like the civilians in Vicksburg, Miss.
Southerenrs —> Southerners
teras —> tears
Sorry typist, I am.
Good story in Jerusalem Post about this:
money quote:
“Dallal emphasized in an interview with CNN that Israel repeatedly told the people of Kafr Kana to leave the area, and accused Hizbullah of using civilians as human shields.
“This is a war zone,” Dallal told CNN. “Why? Ask Hizbullah. They’re responsible.”
….snip
He said Hizbullah also might have prevented the civilians from leaving the collapsed structure “in a cynical and brutal way.”
Israeli officials noted that the Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until hours after the collapse and only when the camera crews came. The rescue team then took out the bodies of children slowly for the camera crews.”
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292037499&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
#9, the simple fact of the matter is that terrorists do not wear a uniform. they are not a member of an official army. they are irregulars. they strike and then blend back into the populace in an effort to confuse and frustrate the other side. the populace is complicit in this by remaining in the war zone and acting as human shields and happily trying to frustrate Israel. Israel has finally come to the conclusion that if Hezbollah launches a rocket from a residential neighborhood, then that neighborhood is now an official battlefield. Hezbollah designated it as such. Hezbollah is doing this for the media impact. They WANT women and children to be injured so that they can try to point to the bodies and paint Israel as the bad guy. When Israel tries to point to the civilians that are injured by the Katushya’s nobody notices or cares. Well, *I* Care
The Amalakites and Amorites also sacrificed their children to their god. Where are they now?
#9 Geoffroy,
Israelis gave ample warning to Lebanese in the southern area of their country before beginning bombing. Hezbollah gave no warning before indiscriminately firing low accuracy rockets into civilian areas of northern Israel.
This post is not in the wrong. This post is the only honest assesment I’ve read about the status of Lebanese who defacto support terrorism by their actions. If Israel purposely targeted “civilians” your comment would ring true with me, but that is not the case.
#9 - The simple fact is if there were never another rocket fired by Hezbollah (or any other terrorist group) into Israel, Israel would never attack targets in Lebanon and no Lebanese “civilians” would be in harm’s way. Israel wants peace with its neighbors. Its no coincidence that there have been no hostilities between Israel and Jordan or Egypt since those countries stopped attacking Israel.
#13 Rorschach,
Your words better convey my thoughts than my own words do. This situation is absolutely disgusting in how it’s been portrayed by the media. Like you, I care deeply because I believe how this plays out will be extremely pivotal in how we proceed against terrorism in the rest of the world. If we allow the media to color this as the Hezbollah wish, no good will follow.
Here’s some footage of the rockets and their launchers in civilian areas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTLdX9i_vI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ8fSkSMhjw
Hizbollah Shoot and scoot. Watch the launchers shoot then go hide in houses. But they don’t hide amongst civilians and use them as shields.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Qdlj-avPc
By Rorschach’s logic in this post, contractors in Iraq are not civilians.
Hey, if it works for terrorists in Iraq, it works for Israel, right?
Hey Faster, how bout a BLAST from the past! F*** Katyusha’s. No guts, no glory!
Bobby, technically, they are not. At least the ones working on base in support of the military. They are in the employ of the US Government in a war zone, so no, they are not technically civilians. They are not a member of the military, but they are working to support the military.
The ones there working on repairing infrastructure and such however do fit the definition of civilians.
#20 Bobby,
In the sense that they realize they are going into a dangerous situation in Iraq, I guess it would be fair to say that contractors are not your usual “civilians”. But that’s where the validity of your comment ends. Contractors in Iraq aren’t used by the United States military as human shields, nor does the United States military purposely target civilian areas with rockets.
20
“By Rorschach’s logic in this post, contractors in Iraq are not civilians.
Hey, if it works for terrorists in Iraq, it works for Israel, right?”
?????WTF?????
Let’s drop attorneys on them…….. They won’t do any damage, but they will make a lot of noise on the way down. And they always leave a mess for everyone else to clean up.
gregg… Schwarzkopf gave the best briefings!! Very PR savvy….. I remember seeing that live!
With the MSM and UN sympathetic to terrorists, and Europe sitting on their hands, Israel will lose the PR war in a prolonged conflict with these so-called surgical strikes. We all know that civilians will be killed anyway. Israel should carpet bomb Hezbollah into non-existence. Their will be less death in the long run that way.
After a long civil war, occupation by Syria, and infestation by Hezbollah, the Lebanese “civilians” are suffering from the most severe case of Stockholm Syndrome ever recorded. When 80% of the population (including Christians) supports Hezbollah, the primary cause for their suffering, I don’t see much hope. The only thing left to do is publicly state that wherever a katushya is launched from, that block will be obliterated.
#24 fasternuHemi
I love this quote; http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/normanschw145299.html
As far as Saddam Hussein being a great military strategist, he is neither a strategist, nor is he schooled in the operational arts, nor is he a tactician, nor is he a general, nor is he a soldier. Other than that, he’s a great military man. I want you to know that.
Norman Schwarzkopf
26 - Exactly, that’s the part that is so frustrating - the more you hit Hezbollah, the stronger they become on “the street” and the bigger enemy we become. And the same thing will happen if we ever hit Iran. The generation in Iran that is inclined toward a moderate and secular Iranian society will be driven into the arms of the mullahs and we’ll lose them forever.
Some more discussion of Hezbollah and it’s stagecraft can be seen here:
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html
and another one here:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283816,00.html
Civilians are being killed on both sides of the border. To equate all Lebanese with terrorists (aka Hezbollah supporters-tacit or overt) is silly. Whether the attacks on the civilian population are direct or indirect, the end result is that civilians are dead.
I fully support Israel’s attack on Hezbollah, but to deny that Lebanese civilians are being killed by the IDF is ludicrous. The same applies to Hezbollah and Israeli civilians.
As with any and every war, it’s the civilian population that ultimately pays the price.
I’d bet that Shehan considers them [hezbollah] “freedom fighters”. As for the kids - sad, but each loss probably represents one less future suicide bomber.
Willie, the glaring difference is that the Israelis aren’t hiding behind civilians and Hezbollah is still targeting Israeli civilians. They aren’t shooting at military targets. If the Lebanese don’t want to get blown up they should not allow Hezbollah to fire rockets from their back yards. They are complicit in the terrorist actions.
How do you suggest the Israelis fight Hezbollah?
Ror
#29
It looks to me like it is the same child in almost all of those pics. How do we really know 34 kids died? We don’t.
#34 also, if the place was bombed at 2AM, why did they wait until 8am to try to recover any survivors? especially since it didn’t fall down until sun-up. They had to wait for the photographers to show up.
hamous:
I have a hard time picturing Hezbollah asking the permission of a Lebanese civilian if they can fire a rocket from their backyard, however, I have no trouble picturing what the Hezbollah terrorist would do to the civilian should he be bold/foolish enough to deny permission.
I agree that Hezbollah hides among the civilain population; all insurgencies do (see Iraq), but that doesn’t mean you should bomb a building housing holding Hezbollah if there are women and children also present. The IDF just has to pass that target (from the air) and move on to the next.
Such is war as we now know it. Israel is losing the PR war with strikes like the one at Qana. If you lose the PR war, you will lose the shooting war as well (see Iraq).
To answer your last question…Israel will have to launch a full-scale ground invasion in order to push Hezbollah back northward and create the “buffer zone” that is their objective. This cannot/will not be accomplished from the air.
#36 - Uhh, they did that. Stayed there for 20 years and had very little rocket fire into northern Israel. Under world and internal pressure they pulled out under the promise of another hapless UN resolution that called for disarming Hezbollah and the Lebanese army to control the area. Which brings us to where we are today.
Wille, the civilians were told to leave. they did not leave. They cast their lot with the terrorists and they lost. I don’t understand how you can see it any other way.
Ror
35
Exactly! Israel had better step up its air and ground attacks because the world opinion will soon shut them down. I say go for it, Israel!
#37) Uhh, I believe there wasn’t a buffer zone put in place once the IDF retreated back to the Israeli side of the border.
Pressure? I guess after 20 years the “pressure” just got to be too much. Geez…
The Israelis left Lebanon because it grew too difficult to maintain their presence. If there was any pressure to pull out it was from the Israeli Left, not the international community. Wasn’t a Lebanon pull-out THE major item of Mr. Barak’s platform when he was running (and winning) the race for PR in 1999/2000?
Listen, once again I support Israel and the attack on Hezbollah. Israel has the right to defend itself, and let’s not forget that Hezbollah initiated the present conflict, but let’s also call a spade a spade. Support shouldn’t be blind.
#40) Uh, PM, not PR.
Fat fingers and a slow brain, not a good combination.
Willie, I AM calling a spade a spade here and that is exactly the point of my post. the lebanese stopped being civilians when they chose to say in a war zone and support the terrorists. They had the opportunity to leave and chose not to. that means they were either held hostage, which puts thier deaths on the hands of the terrorists, or they stayed of their own free will, which makes them terrorists themselves.
#38) So, because they didn’t leave that necessarily makes them Hezbollah members and/or terrorist sympathizers? If so, then the fact that they choose to stay (or couldn’t leave) makes them legitimate targets? That isn’t logical.
If that were the case Hezbollah would have won every seat in the Lebanese parliment, not just a small minority of them.
#40 - Willie, the UN had “peacekeepers” there. The intent was to create the buffer zone you talk of. It obviously didn’t work. As soon as the IDF pulled out Hezbollah put 13,000 katushyas in place.
I doubt that Israel gives a damn about the PR war. They have been attacked - unprovoked. It is not in the best interest of Israel to halt the attacks until Hezbollah has been destroyed. The notion that Israel should stop defending themselves and wait to be murdered by a group of suicidal murderous cowards that are not members of a “State” is foolish. Yes some members of Hezbollah are members of the Lebanese government, but in that capacity they are aligned with Lebanon, not with Hezbollah. Can anyone seriously imagine trying to strike a deal with a group of criminals; it’d be the same thing. I personally believe that Hezbollah would only see a cease fire as an opportunity to rearm for more attacks. They must be eradicated.
I hate to be redundant as I’m sure this is what everyone is thinking and saying but like to put it in small words (the way my brain thinks)–it seems to me Israel’s fight against Hezbollah is not unlike our fight against al-Quaeda…well deserved and yet the rest of the world makes US out to be the terrorists. Go figure!
Maybe Hezbollah is teaching courses in “Roman or civil law” and all these people have received some sort of Civilian Certification.
#46 The rest of the so called world (i.e. the LIBERAY media) wants our President to look BAD. That is why they are pushing us and Israel as the “bad guys”.
There is a good reason why I don’t watch or pay attention to any of the alphabet networks, and I only watch the local news for the sports and weather because even THEIR reporting is starting to get one sided. There are some TV’s in my office that are on CNN and FOX all day, and just reading the scroller at the bottom of the screen, it would make someone depressing. I’m doing great, my work and business is doing great, but if I paid ANY attention to them, I would think the world is ending next week because things are SOOOOOOOOO bad! Everyone I know is doing fine in their lives and work, and yes there is trouble in the world, but most of the trouble is brought on by BAD people doing BAD things. NOT the U.S or Israel doing anything.
well a solution might be to end this war would be:
if there are any attacks from the lebanon boarder then israel can use tactical nukes and that would be put in the UN resolution. both parties could save face that way and israel could feel rather safe with that option.
There are no angels in all of this. Let all the sides ruthlessly butcher each other until only a few are left standing. Presumably, those left will be more receptive to getting along.
Both sides are becoming a bother. A pox on both their houses.
Simple
I usually read and link to NRO articles earlier in the day, so apologies if someone has already done this:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2RlNjNjZWNlOTQzNTVjMTRjMWY4MzRkMDQzYmY5ZjM=
It seemed a pretty astute observation to me.
# 9 Geoffery
You said you live in france, I am just curious, how did you learn about LST?
Whether those killed in Qana were sympathizers or held against their will, Israel is fighting an enemy which does not value life. These women and children are unfortunate casualties, and we as a civilized people should not treat them any less than we would our own casualties. But we should not let our sympathies cloud our judgement. If evil is not driven out now, it will be even more difficult for Israel and the Western world.
Israel alone is responsible for creating Hezbollah. All they had to do was to clear up from the Middle East and set up shops far, far away from the Arabs if they really wanted peace and security, but noooooooooooooo, stubborn as they are, they would not move for fear of 1 billion plus a year entitlement they receive from United States .
I guess who could blame them. 1 Billion plus a year , year after year, forever and forever.
#54 There is plenty of empty land, why not have Hezbollah “clear up from the Middle East” and set up shops elsewhere? Israel has every right to be where they are.
#53
There is not enough bullets in Israel’s arsenal to obliterate Hezbollah, because there are 10 more waiting to replace 1 dead Hezbollah.
200 million plus arabs are not going anywhere soon from the Middle East, since majority rules Israel should do the honors if they truly love peace and security , they should thank the British for creating this problem and pack up in different directions.
Voila, we have peace as we know it in the Middle East.
#56 Israel gets a little sliver of land and a little help, turns it into a prosperous country.
Palestinians get a little slice of land (because the Arab neighbors who have plenty of land won’t give any to them) are given a little help, and they buy guns and bombs and live in despair.
Seems like Israel is the better investment.
In case you’re trolling, I shall end my point of view here.
digitaldon
#57
Your last sentence nailed it! DFTT!
An interesting sidenote:
There was a disagreement among the early Zionists as to whether they should repatriate Palestine or look to the New World for their nation-state. The adherents who wanted South America lost out to those who wanted a return to Jerusalem.
Wonder how different the world would be today if the New World argument had won out?
Rahman, it is stupid crap like that that is going to lead to worldwide genocide of muslims. When you can’t learn to get along and live in peace with the rest of humanity, you’re no better than a rabid dog and rabid dogs get put down. There ARE enough bullets, or should I say bombs, in Israel’s arsenal to end this if need be, and if there isn’t there is enough in ours. Hezbolla is dead, as is radical islam, it just hasn’t figured it out yet.
You are exactly right Rorschach. How dare these people get in the way of all those bombs intended for members of hezbollah. They should have flown first class to America and hung out in Houston!
#61
NWOR! Ignorance begats ignorance.
I just cannot wait until 20-50 years from now when the drones will fight the wars for America and Israel. At least we will not have to mourn our soldiers’ deaths. How many virgins does a Muslim fanatic suicide bomber get for blowing up R2D2?
63 will
For that they get a dozen of these
http://www.eriklove.com/news2006/photo/sheepdoll_page.jpg
and a never ending quart of Mazola….
Rahman, et al. you need to keep one thing firmly in mind. in the 1940’s Jews were very nearly wiped out as a people. There are a lot of those survivors still alive and teaching thier kids and their grandkids about what it means to be marked for death. They know what is at stake here far better than the muslims do. they must fight or they will die. their backs are against the wall (the sea) and thier lives and the lives of thier families are at stake. they will fight with every tool in thier arsenal. when they run out of bombs and artillery shells and missiles and bullets, they will fight with knives, rocks, and thier bare hands. and if they are to ultimately loose, they will take out every muslim they can in the process. They have no compunction about using nuclear weapons. they were minutes away from doing so in 1973, and they will do so again. they will use nukes on their own soil if they must. The muslims have gone and cornered a tigeress and her cubs, and they won’t like the result very much.
Because it is all black and white, right Rorschach? I support Israel, but being in the way of a rocket does not make you guilty. Right now, it might mean that for whatever reason you can’t get out of Lebanon before the attacks.
#66, yes it is pretty dang black and white.
The Dude
Yes Israel has prevented for an israeli air strike in the southern Lebanon but do you think that the hezbollah prevented them to escape ????? Because they use them like shields and It’s strategic do you know why ???
Because after Hezbollah will say . Then the UN will blame Israel and for the moral Hezbollah will win and for me It will be stupid if the terrorists would win because Israel didn’t think before to send commandos in order to destroy their Katyusha ( theey are capable to do that because their commandos are very strong )
Rahman Goldigger38
I would like to answer you but explain me what is LST in English, write the word please and I will tell you