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20 Responses to “Mexican Murderers, International Treaties, and a Maligned President”
  1. bigjolly on October 9th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

    Wow. Very good post, Rick. People simply cannot think rationally when discussing GW or the border. Combine the two and you get total loss of reason.

  2. texpat on October 9th, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    Job well done, Rick. I would strongly encourage everyone to read the complete post and not skip the legal portion. It is clearly written and not, as Rick put it, legalese.

    Shortly before I became a contributor, we had quite a discussion and debate here on LST about this very subject. I tried lay out the history and facts of the case. I also made the comment at the time the President and his team would have picked any case but this one on which to stake a constitutional claim. They didn’t get to choose - the government of Mexico did.

  3. Adee on October 9th, 2007 at 2:42 pm

    Excellent post, Rick. Agree with BJ #1. Too many conservatives have been whipped into an apparently permanent froth over “comprehensive immigration reform” (amnesty no matter how you disguise it) and the agonizingly incomprehensible squishiness on border control, border patrol and county law enforcement, and relations with Mexico.

    Outrage on those matters is absolutely justified in my opinion. But the heat of that correct outrage is leaking over to cloud rational thought on other matters involving President Bush’s opinions and exercse of executive power, pretty much except for the veto of runaway liberal legislation and in making war on the islamofacists, which is greeted with relief.

    I fear conservatives are in danger of becoming schizoid, which will only help the socialist liberals. We all have to look carefully before we leap to conclusions these days. It is not solely the devil who inhabits the details.

  4. Broc on October 9th, 2007 at 2:53 pm

    Great post!!

    I have a couple of questions since you do seem to know a lot about the case.
    Was Jose Medellin here illegally?

    Does that affect the treaty?

    How would that apply to US citizens if in another country? Meaning if I was in Mexico illegally and committed a crime, would I still have this option to get counsel from the American consulate, or would they treat me differently since I was not legally in the country?

  5. RickG on October 9th, 2007 at 3:12 pm

    4.

    My understanding is that Medellin was not a legal resident. He had come here as a boy and attended U.S. schools since elementary schools. That information comes from other sources, as his legal status is not mentioned in either his brief or the State’s.

    Article 36 of the treaty does not mention legal status, thus it applies to any foreign national and a country should NOT treat an illegal different than a legal under the treaty (but who knows what goes on some places?).

  6. duhmoose on October 9th, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    Sometimes I think that we as a Nation are no longer capable of reasoned debate. We determine who the enemy is first, and then find the evidence to convict them. Bush seems to be trying to uphold our treaty obligations, even when it means doing unpopular things. To me, that is the right thing to do, however, it also seems he has some really bad advisers explaining these things to him. Hopefully the worst that will come out of this is re-sentencing, and not a retrial.

  7. Ree-C Murphey on October 9th, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    RickG:

    Excellent post.

    As always, a lot of these situations are more complex than what first meets the eye. This is further supported by the Supreme Court getting involved (they don’t take every case presented to them).

    I would also like to add that the crime Medellin was convicted of was particularly gross and heinous. I know that I was very “touched” by it and would tell others that, “some people don’t deserve to breathe air on this planet, even if it’s polluted - especially these guys”. (My skin still crawls when I recall some of the particulars of this crime.) Didn’t Medellin try to kick reporters when he was being “perp walked” to police station that he was going to be booked in and held (it may have been one of the other perps)…?

    I understand the rational side of this of wanting to make sure every letter of the law has been followed, but this guy is using the system, including
    having his own web site
    (as part of the Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty)..

    If ever a crime deserved the death penalty, this is it. He deserves to be dispatched ASAP. As soon as this “loop hole” is closed out.

    The most important thing in this? Remember the victims, Jennifer Ertman(14) and Elizabeth Pena(16) and their parents. Please say prayers for them.

    I know that the rational side says that this further legal wrangling must be done, but I can’t help but feel that Jennifer and Elizabeth are being victimized again….

  8. dcgirl on October 9th, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    It seems that any foreigner, especially ones like Medellin, who came to this country when they were a child and, unless they inform the court, would have 2 chances at freedom. If they lose in the first trial, they simply say that they are a foreigner who was denied access to their consulate. Nevermind that they never mentioned that they were not from the U.S. It think that this treaty should only apply if the accused informs the court/cops/etc. right away that they wish to exercise their right to consulate counsel. Otherwise, too bad.

  9. Basara on October 9th, 2007 at 3:50 pm

    I’m actually hoping that the court rules in favor of President Bush.

    If we are honor bound to follow this treaty that we have signed, then we must determine the citizenship of every criminal apprehended by the police.

    Think of it, we can use this treaty to eliminate sanctuary cities. By this treaty, we have sworn to inform all foreigners that they are allowed legal access to their consulate. That cannot happen unless the police verify the citizenship of all perps they apprehend.

    Eliminating sanctuary cities would be a huge step in fixing the illegal alien problem we currently have. I say we follow this treaty to the letter and found out just who is a citizen and who isn’t.

    On the case itself, it seems that either way, the scumbag will fry for his vile actions. As long as justice is done, I will be happy.

  10. hamous on October 9th, 2007 at 4:11 pm

    If you remember a few months ago when we first discussed this case, a lot of commenters were screaming that Bush was going to give Medellin a pardon. It took all day for everyone to get to the truth. I’m glad that isn’t happening today.

    As I understand it, the US courts are only concerned whether the violations of the treaty had a direct effect on the outcome of the verdict. I would be shocked if they rule that it did. I believe Mr. Medellin is not much longer for this world.

  11. klayman on October 9th, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    If the issue is the death penalty, or lack thereof, then, if TX loses, they should be able to incarcerate him for life in the exact same conditions he would find in a Mexicao prison. As a matter of fact, maybe we could actually build a Mexican prison over the border and house our illegal residents there, or just rent a jail cell for him

  12. RickG on October 9th, 2007 at 5:39 pm

    Even if the Supreme Court sides with Bush (or with Medellin for that matter, as their positions are apparently a little different), the course seems clear: Texas has its evidentiary hearing to assess the prejudicial effect of the treaty violation, finds that the error was harmless and sets an execution date. Bush has already said the ICJ judgments won’t be considered binding in the future, so unless the Texas hearing is a mere sham, wouldn’t that end it?

  13. phil on October 9th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    Has Jorge w been evaluated to see whether he is clinically insane?

    Why is he so concerned with a treaty when he could care less about our immigration laws. He does not believe in the rule of law as he has shown the last 7 years.

    His immigration policy is based on his feelings not his duty. Again he picks and chooses which is why he has Zero credibility.

    Maybe he can pray to Allah for more guidance.

  14. Gritsforbreakfast on October 9th, 2007 at 9:19 pm

    Rick, I gave you props for an excellent post here on Grits.

  15. FourAlarm on October 9th, 2007 at 9:33 pm

    Yeah, all these intellectual-procedural-limbo tricks make for some fancy conversation over paper cups filled with the finest Brandy but as this pin-head sees it… no-harm no-foul. Did he kill? Yes. Shall Texas punish? Yes.

  16. luv2hammer on October 9th, 2007 at 11:16 pm

    I know it is late, but I just got home from work.

    In law there are two tenets that must be observed. The first is the letter or intent of the law and the second is equity. The fact he did not or was not allowed to contact is Embassy or Counselor does not affect the out come of the trial.

    This post was written by an attorney so he addresses it as an attorney. Since I am part of the criminal justice system I am well acquainted with the way attorneys defend their clients. A good attorney will use everything in their power to get their client acquitted. If I were charged with a crime I would expect my attorney to do everything possible to get me found not guilty of the crime I was alleged to commit.

    This is what is called the letter or intent of the law.

    But there is another part of the law that is often overlooked and that is equity (justice). This is the justice that the victims, Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Pena and their families so justly deserve. The President should’ve simply told the court that the fact that the perpetrator was not allowed or did not contact a representative of his government would not have affected the outcome of the trial and then not interfered with the execution of the criminal illegal alien Jose Medellin.

    I am too suspicious of the MEXICAN connection. President Bush has lost his integrity with me and a host of other people of the United States.

  17. Gritsforbreakfast on October 10th, 2007 at 6:00 am

    I disagree with this comment strongly: “I can’t help but feel that Jennifer and Elizabeth are being victimized again”

    Respecting the rule of law honors the victims. Medellin may be a vicious killer, but our society should not emulate HIS values.

    We can and should pursue justice, equity, whatever you want to call it, but “Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.”

  18. WallyG on October 10th, 2007 at 8:19 am

    Same story, different President, and familiar governor. What happens when the shoe is on the other foot….?
    http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/09/texas.execution/
    Is Bush a hypocrite I ask?

  19. RickG on October 10th, 2007 at 8:52 am

    18.

    It’s not the same story. There are lots of differences.

  20. Darkcorner on October 10th, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    I hate the thought of that rotting carcass to our south having any say in any thing we do.

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