Supporters of Ron Paul are proudly trumpeting the news that the Presidential candidate has the overwhelming support of the military. This belief is based on information contained in a press release by the Paul campaign that shows donations from those people self -identified as being associated with the military outpaced donations to all other candidates combined. Indeed, that does seem to be the case. What is not stated in the press release is that those donations include civilian employees of the military, a substantial percentage of military employees.
Ron Paul campaign chairman Kent Snyder even said this: “The latest numbers make it clear: the troops support Ron Paul.” The numbers in no way make that statement clear. In fact, just the opposite is clear. It is against Federal Law (Titles 10, 2, and 18, United States Code), Department of Defense (DOD) Directives, plus specific military regulations for active duty military personnel to participate in partisan political activities. “The troops” do not support Ron Paul because to do so would be illegal.
It was suggested what was really meant by the Paul campaign was that Veterans support Ron Paul. There are a substantial number of veterans in that list (side note: there are a few supporters listed as “active duty”; they should reconsider allowing their names to be published on that list as it is illegal to do so). Since we have had several primaries and caucuses, support among vets has actually been measured. The results show Dr. Paul has very little support among veterans:
| Giuliani | Huckabee | McCain | Paul | Romney | Thompson | |
| Michigan | 4% | 14% | 41% | 7% | 32% | 1% |
| South Carolina | 1 | 29 | 36 | 3 | 17 | 14 |
| Florida | 12 | 7 | 42 | 4 | 35 | - |
| Nevada | 4 | 4 | 15 | 14 | 48 | 13 |
It is clear that neither Veterans nor active duty military personnel support Ron Paul in substantial numbers. What about the large amount of money? The numbers appear to be generated by the Ron Paul campaign themselves so I would expect them to be biased. Strangely enough, the Paul campaign used the excuse that it would set a dangerous precedent to track donations when asked to do so last year, but I digress. Open Secrets is a non-partisan organization that tracks money in politics. Here’s a comparison of military donations identified by them compared to the Ron Paul campaign numbers:
| Candidate | Open Secrets | Ron Paul Campaign |
| Ron Paul | $111,261 | $249,000 |
| John McCain | 31,077 | 83,000 |
| Mike Huckabee | 24,535 | 37,000 |
| Mitt Romney | 8995 | 24,000 |
I arrived at these numbers from Open Secrets by searching for donors who identified their employer as Army, Navy, Air Force, or Coast Guard. The numbers are quite a bit lower than those from the Ron Paul campaign but the ratios between the candidates are basically the same – Ron Paul leads in donations from those identified as military personnel. While I was searching I decided to compare the numbers to Bush in the 2004 election. To my surprise, Bush’s total from military personnel was $48,312, less than half that of Ron Paul’s total this year.
Do veterans and/or troops support Ron Paul? Looking at the numbers for veterans the answer is yes - in about the same numbers as in the general population, between three and five percent. But the bottom line is this: it is fallacious of the Ron Paul campaign to take these numbers and pronounce “the troops support Ron Paul”.
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Way to go Hamous–spell it out so even children can understand… or especially Ronulans that want more for the Patriot Ron Paul, but can’t get.
RP needs to drop out and quit wasting space in my world.
I believe you have misrepresented the law. A military person is free to participate in the political process in any way he or she likes. However, he or she may not do so in uniform, which would give the impression of support from the military service to which the member belongs.
Hamous–it is a Reesearched, Fair and Balanced article–well done–the Paul supprters will be pleased–I’ll get CR+P for my first post, but I couldn’t help myself.
randyw–as I remember (granted that was a while ago–30 yrs now–geez can’t believe that), as a military member you could not actively or publically support the political proscess–you could vote (privately) but your responsibility was to the Nation as a whole and the Commander-in-Chief, the President. Seems, like the statutes that were posted yesterday covered this exact issue.
#2 randyw - I think you’re wrong:
I don’t understand. I just scrolled down the LST page and counted 4 pieces on Ron Paul.
He is not going to be the next president. He is going to be a returning congressman. Is it a slow news day.
Wouldn’t time be better spent on why McCain is going to win and where is the next Ronald Reagan that can win in 2012. (Not Tancredo or Hunter).
Come on LST strive for relevance.
I’m not so sure he is going to be a returning Senator. There will never be another Ronald Reagan. However, each of the candidates thinks he is the clone. This is the last election for my generation……the vietnam era folks. It is going to be up to the younger pups to lead. When my friend first ran for office in Florida….. a state rep position, he had to go to Miami to seek votes. He met with the leaders there ( that’s a hilarious story unto itself) He had to speak to the community on the radio and had a language barrier. He said, what do I do? They assured him to just throw out Ronald Reagan’s name periodically and all would be good. So he did, and he won. Ron Paul has some great ideas, but they are packaged in a flawed container.
You act like you’ve found something amazing? Even assuming that your source site is better informed or using a better filtering method, the percentages don’t change significantly. If there is a change in YOUR graphs it shows a bump towards Huckabee, a little less than half for Paul, and much less for Romeny and McCain…at least as far as Percentages go. In any event, even using the numbers that YOU provide from open secrets Paul is outperforming all of them combined? That isn’t at all significant to you? At a minimum it shows that those military who are politically active show more support for Dr. Paul than the other candidates.
As for a penalty for Active Duty members participating under the UCMJ when they are obviously using THEIR OWN NAME in a list of individual supporters they are not particularly representing the military, just their own views. Of course the Armed Services have been known to be capricious about such things, but they are not technically violating the UCMJ.
jleaves–go to the IC for the McCain interest–that’s where I posted two snippets why NOT to vote McCain.
Until RP drops out as he should’ve yesterday, RP pieces must be posted to canfront that which is passed on by the campaign as fact and are shaky at best.
hamous–Theey’re baaaack. Oooh, boy howdy–y’all were right. oohoooh, LST is picking on our Glorious Leader the Patriot Ron Paul, let’s go boys, take that hill!
That’s funny, in my time at Ft. Hood I found Texans to be relatively polite. Luckily I know that y’all that are name calling and showing nothing but scorn and condescension aren’t good representatives of Texas. Too bad others seeing this won’t get that impression.
Sorry, Chad, I’ve read too many posts that used the terms above… posted by RP supporters. We are polite in Texas–I didn’t use any of the terms that I prefer to use and are more appropos to his and the supporters character, typically. IMHO.
Now, Chad why is it that y’all only show up when there is honest critisism to Ron Paul or Supporters statements?
Shad & jleaves–Sorry, have to go have a full day at work, but I’ll check in later to see what you left me. T’all have a gret day and go Romney.
Chad - you’re equating dollars with support. I clearly stated that RP is gathering the most money from people identified as “military”, just like in the general population. That has not translated into votes. All the money bombs are great…they just don’t seem to matter much. Americans are not embracing Ron Paul and that is a fact.
As I pointed out to randyw in #5 the rules are pretty clear. Active duty soldiers cannon make monetary contributions directly to a political candidate. And on the “Veterans” link in the article, either those listing themselves as “active duty” are not being truthful or they are breaking the rule that says they cannot allow or cause to be published partisan political articles signed or written by the member that solicits votes for or against a partisan political party, candidate, or cause.
Y’see it’s like this…The major media has done their damnedest to prevent the message that Dr. Paul has from getting out. Anyone who has paid the slightest bit of attention can see it. And there are a LOT of us who have actually taken the time to look into Dr. Paul and haven’t bought into what the media has to say.
Since we don’t have any other options on where to get news and info on what’s happening with his campaign all we pretty much get is whats available on the web, and since we’re starved for information we are pretty much voracious about reading it, and if it tickles our fancy we comment. Since there are so many of us getting our news in this manner, those good people who normally haunt those websites presenting the news articles feel we’re some sort of invaders, or mentally touched.
In my case I posted because I noticed that the conclusions of this article didn’t change the basic facts that he is still getting more support from soldiers than the others combined. It seemed like the story had a lack of critical thinking, so I put in my viewpoint. Unfortunately I didn’t read the who set of comments before I responded so I didn’t see the quote from hamous that looks like a direct quote from the UCMJ, which assuming its a direct quote is obviously a much better authority than my opinion.
I have to point out while I’m at it though, that most of those service members who are participating know that they are flirting with official sanction against them. We have an active duty soldier in our meet up group (I live 10 miles from Ft Knox), and although he knows he is taking on personal risk he feels that it is so important a thing that he will take that risk. He is probably even going to stand with us when we go to wave Paul sings at Dubya for the Lincoln Day presentation; I sincerely hope he doesn’t get in trouble, but its a risk he’s willing to take to do what he feels is right.
Honestly the vast majority of RP supporters are not at all fruitcakes, we really and truly believe that this country is off course because no one in its government takes the principles of our constitution to heart. They take an oath like they are paying a tip at a restaurant, its just one more little thing to them. RP is different, he is honest, and I personally believe that when people give him an honest look, instead of just assuming what they are told is right, that they often have an epiphany. A lot of us have the view that anything that big media and big parties have against Paul must in fact be points in his favor, because those people most certainly don’t give a damn about the little people that make up this country.
Ah so now we have class warfare. blah It’s the job of any candidates supporters and himself to get his message out. How is the blimp doing? Look, I feel your pain…… Duncan Hunter got very little media coverage…. but it’s up to him.
My observation as someone who works in a less than conservative state (Minnesota)
Someone who I work with (who knew I was from Texas) was telling me that her husband (just back from Iraq) and a lot of his national guard buddies support Ron Paul. She said that everyone he knew that had been to Iraq supported him. I’m sure that has to do with Ron Paul’s position that we shouldn’t be in Iraq.
So there may be a little grain of truth to that, considering that some of the troops come from more liberal states. Doesn’t mean that they don’t support their CIC.
They’re suppressin’ his message? C’mon, Dr. Paul has gotten more media coverage than any minor candidate in the history of this country that consistently pulls less than 5%. The media have been more than generous in their exposure of Ron Paul.
No, he is getting more money from people identifying themselves as associated with the military.
I personally hope they throw the book at them. Those soldiers took an oath. They don’t have the luxury of deciding which rules they want to follow. To allow such flaunting undermines the entire concept of military discipline. If they don’t want to adhere to those principles perhaps they should work in the private sector.
I think you’re probably right, although you wouldn’t know it by the representatives that show up here on any given day (present company excluded).
No, actually. Most of us don’t view it as class warfare, that’s a leftist (commie faction of the Dems) view. Most of the people in the RP camp view it as a hijacking of the process. I don’t expect you guys to be as informed about RP, but I will mention a couple things here that you may not be aware of.
#1 There have been some pretty serious breaches of ethics involving the primary voting process in New Hampshire and Louisiana. In New Hampshire there is video documentation of some highly questionable activity by no less than their NH Secretary of State. In Louisiana a few key members of the republican party decided they didn’t like the way things were going for RP and unilaterally (as in outside of party rules) changed the methodology, then they decided to throw out voters who legitimately met the deadlines, probably because they viewed them as “invaders” to their party.
The media really have done their best to minimize RP successes and emphasize those of the other candidates. Did you realize that McCain was so broke at the end of the 4th quarter he only had $2.5M, and actually owed $4.5M for a loan he took out? How did he revive his campaign? Free Media Support. Did you guys know that Rupert Murdoch (who owns Fox News) actually contributed the max $2,300 to Clinton? Does that arouse your suspicions any? It should.
Have you guys been paying attention to all the acts they’ve been putting into place for “our security”? Individually they are all vaguely worded, which should be enough cause for alarm. But when you put them together we are only one Despotic leader away from a true Fascist state. I know you are unlikely to believe me, but all of our civil liberties are being threatened in a way that hasn’t happened since the 1770s. And RP is the only one who has been sounding the alarm bell for well over a decade.
Can you explain to me why every organized, self-proclaimed fascist group in the country supports Ron Paul?
“I personally hope they throw the book at them. Those soldiers took an oath. They don’t have the luxury of deciding which rules they want to follow. To allow such flaunting undermines the entire concept of military discipline. If they don’t want to adhere to those principles perhaps they should work in the private sector.”–Hamous
Yes they took an oath. And most of them joined to protect their country and fight terrorism, and they aren’t (in my opinion, and apparently in many of theirs) doing that. They are nation building, and trying to stand in the way of someone else’s civil war. They took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. RP is the living embodiment of that oath (in a legislator). Another part of the same serviceman’s oath says that they must obey their superiors. Part of that IS the UCMJ, but the UCMJ does NOT supersede their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. If they are willing to face the penalties for breaking a regulation so be it, they are willing to suffer those penalties. But personally I’d be ashamed in shouting for their collective asses, when they are out in the world getting blown to bits for lousy reasons. All because we can’t hold our government to it’s Constitutional controls.
I’m not going to argue the semantics of the war, as it is off topic to your article. If you care enough to see my opinion, or argue those points with me I’ve got an article here: http://www.nolanchart.com/article2446.html
The actualy truth is that only people who are employed byt the various branches of the military are giving monetary support to ron Paul in numbers large than the others.
Since the early 1970’s, when the Army wanted to “join me,” the military has steadily transferred much of the work on military bases to contractors and civilian employees. These days, the only time a recruit can expect to do “KP” is in Basic Training, and that’s just to continue a time honored Military Tradition. That’s because Mess Halls are run by civilians. So is the trash pick up, maintenance except for the most basic, lawn care, road and infrastrucre maintenance, plumbing and building maintenance—you get the picture. A military base is a small city, and all of the types of employees that a city normally has on it’s payroll are on military payrolls, and they are overwhelmingly civilian.
The percentage of civilians to military employees in the Reserve Forces is even higher. Civilians basically run the Army Reserve and national Guard, except for one weekend a month, or when they are deployed over seas, and even then most Personnell Administrative work is done by civilians over here.
I’ll also point out that both you and the Paul Campaign should remove the Coast Guard from those numbers. They are not techically in the United States Military—they are not even under the Department of Defense. The coast Guard is a Law Enforcement Agency that used top be under the Department of Transporatation, and is now under the Department of Homeland Secrity.
But this just underscores the lengths to which the Paul campaing continues his lying behavior. he lied about his newsletters, now he is pulling the same kind of poltical doublespeak he claims to be rescuing us from. The brazenness and hypocris is Clintonian in scale, and the fact that there are those coming here today to defend him shows that they are the true sheeple, not us.
“Can you explain to me why every organized, self-proclaimed fascist group in the country supports Ron Paul?”–Hamous
Because every one of those organizations know that they are a hated minority, and the only thing that will protect their right to openly voice their opinion is the Constitutional controls and small government that RP represents.
Did you know that if HR 1955 makes it through the Senate(and none of the other candidates except Paul has worked against it) that those groups you mentioned will effectively become guilty of thought crimes? By just expressing their opinions they can be labeled domestic terrorists.
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0802a.asp
18,20 & 22__Hamous & Sarge–explain , explain, explai–they won’t appreciate the points, because, it’s not coming from the their talking points site.
Chad, military members’ oathes are sacred and not to be thrown away for any personal grandizement. Dr. Paul, having served in the military (sort of) should have told them, jst as he should have told the extremist whackos, to not support him–in the military’s case, because of the legal ramifications and their service–for the nutjobs–to stay away from him to be taken seriously.
And BTW, Rp has received more press, etc. than Hunter and Tancredo copmbined. Seems he was on the stage with one exception, of which Hunter wasn’t there iether.
I’ll be back–hodl the fort guys; repel the “invaders”!
So to keep the fascists at bay we have to empower them. That’s an interesting concept…
Chad;
From you own link, the law defines:
The law does not make criminals out of people who have those beleifs.
It makes criminals out of people who commit or plan to commit violence in furtherance of those beliefs.
In other words, you are free to beleive that a Pygmy Princess should sit on the Throne of the United States. You can say it, you can join together at rallies to promote it, you can form the “Pygmy Princess for President Party.” You cn have parades, garage sales, and bazaars in order to raise money to enhance Pygmy Princess Awareness.
But as soon as you start organizing people with guns and bombs to make it happen by force, we’re all going to come and get your ass and throw it in jail.
Timothy McVeigh and H. Rap Brown were unavailable for comment.
KentBook,
I didn’t mean to imply that RP’s campaign was the only one that suffered from the media bias. But all arguments for what they have been doing have been completely blown away by his performance. Yes his numbers are lacking, but he has beaten every single candidate in at least one state (maybe not Romney, not sure on him). He hasn’t won anywhere yet, but imagine what he would have done if the media hadn’t been constantly dismissing him as a kook, as a fringer, a tinfoil hat wearer, or that his followers were all strange creatures from the internet. If you watch the debates he is the only one even talking about issues (at least at this time). The others are talking about soundbites, and petty squabbles over who said they were going to support Dubya when.
Again, I have another article here where I talk about how I think the bias is detrimental to the whole system.
http://www.nolanchart.com/article2440.html
Will the Pygmy Princess be riding a Pygmy Pony (just about this big) named Mighty Little?
Sarge, did you read the whole article? Or did you stop at the top? The point is that in the wrong hands (i.e. your average politician) that those clauses can be applied to anyone. Okay, lemme point it out a little further…
Passage of:
USAPATRIOT, they started domestic spying, if you were linked to anyone who they found objectionable they could also monitor you.
The Military Tribunals act, allowed them to continue tossing people in the clink indefinitely without access to the outside world, knowing what the charges are, habeus corpus, additionally they can try you in a military court regardless of your citizenship
They refuse to rule out torture, which means they can make you confess anything they want.
HR 1955, if passed effectively allows them to label something they don’t like as terrorism, combined with the above they don’t even have to get a warrant to grab your ass.
Let me spin a little yarn for you considering all that above is true…
We’re sitting here two years from now discussing this sort of thing. I say “if Clinton keeps trying to grab guns then someone is gonna put a bullet in her”. Later on in the conversation I say that I am a gun-owner, and that I bought my first rifle as a reaction to the USAPATRIOT act (both true).
Now y’see, there’s been a domestic terrorist incident in the two years between now and then. So their little internet monitoring flags me, and ships my ass to a dark hole for making terrorist threats.
But here’s the fun part, you were taking part in that conversation too. So by USAPATRIOT standards you could be involved in a conspiracy. So they decide they are going to wire-tap your ass to find out who you are involved with. As far as they are concerned you’re already guilty. Some bumbling idiot in the Department of Homeland Monitoring decides you aren’t home (but your wife just happens to be) and they decide to pull a no-knock entry on your home to plant the bugs. Your dog goes nuts and bites one, they try to fight off the dog, and your wife hearing them in the next room confronts them with a shotgun (like any good Texan defending her castle). They splatter her ass to the breeze, plant some evidence and you’re suddenly sharing a dark cell right beside me.
….
Yeah, its a little out there, but its not inconceivable. And that’s assuming that the people who are in control are actually somewhat benevolent. What happens when the wrong person gets in office? Someone like Tricky Dick who saw enemies everywhere?
Yeah, I know…now I’m just a conspiracy nut in your eyes. But if you don’t look forward and see the potential consequences of loosely worded legislation that gives wayyyy to much power to your government then you must think way too much of the benevolence of those who seek absolute power in your government.
27 Sarge
You beat me to it.
I must be getting really slow.
:>)
Well guys, thanks for letting me ramble on your turf. I work graveyard shift, so its time to head to bed. Hopefully I didn’t make anyone too mad. And even more hopefully I gave you something that might help you make sense of what is really happening in this country when it all starts going topsy-turvy.
Hopefully in 10 years you’ll be laughing about what some joker said back in ‘08, but don’t worry if you’re not laughing I won’t be saying I told you so. Its way too hard to say I told you so from a dark hole. Just remember: Question authority, before it questions you.
One more rhetorical question before I hit the road. Does anyone here think that if McCain, Obama, or Clinton had those statistics backing them up (or the fundraising statistics) that you wouldn’t see it in bright bold letters EVERYWHERE? In my sometimes humble opinion if it was anyone but RP (or maybe at this point Huckabee) then those donation numbers would be a major story, and you would probably be a lot less likely to question them.
Chad, you’re always welcome here. While I may disagree with your vision of Ron Paul I welcome a civil discussion. We get very few RP supporters here that are able to do that.
If you haven’t taken the time to fully read and comprehend the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001, don’t feel like the lone ranger. Very few congress critters had a clue about it when they voted for it.
Chad,
Your style is a refreshing change from past Paul supporters.
To respond to your question,
I doubt the mainstream media scum will ever make “military support” a headline story, regardless. They generally are Clintonoids when it comes to caring about anything concerning the military.
hamous
“I personally hope they throw the book at them. Those soldiers took an oath. They don’t have the luxury of deciding which rules they want to follow. To allow such flaunting undermines the entire concept of military discipline. If they don’t want to adhere to those principles perhaps they should work in the private sector.”
My husband was in the military. He was injured during training and was discharged before he went to Iraq.
He had status papers that said that he could not be deployed to Iraq, so did many others because of injuries and mental problems from being on thier 1st up to 4th deployment of this one war.
What they did was give a mass appointment to those people, my husband included. He watched as the people all sitting in one room, were approched one at a time. They would look at their status and then ask them a few questions, basically a medical evaluation in front of everyone else there that had military doctors orders against deployment to Iraq. Then, most of them had their non-deployment status torn up right in front of them and then they were herded over to a desk where a deployment statue paper, that was already filled out, was waiting for them.
Also, when they sign up, they are prepared to do what they have to do. What most Americans don’t know is that there is something called a “stop loss” which means that when the service time that you have signed up for is up you don’t get the option to leave at that time. So it is very hard for them to get out. There is a small window for those who, after shortly coming home find out they are being redeployed soon, can actually get out, if their contract falls into that time frame they are lucky.
I would hope that if the American people really knew what was happening to the troops they would be outraged and stand up for them.
Did you know that when you go to the ER at Fort Hood that the usual wait time is about 7 hours, if you are lucky. Do you know who gets priority? The higher up military wives. If they come in, they don’t usually have to wait as long as the lower enlisted do. If you are in bad shape then you better call 9-11 or you will be sitting for a while. That is just a small sample of the health care in the military. Like if you get flu symptoms you either call your clinic and get an appointment for 2 weeks out or you go to the ER and wait half the day or night.
I understand what they signed up for, but the people who signed up for the military should be treated way better than they are. They need to be as fit and well as they can be.
18. hamous
Dang, you beat me to it, Shimmysham.
19. Chad
What exactly are the good Dokter’s successes? He hasn’t had any in Congress. And, aside from a few fundraising days - which had no effect at the ballot box - he hasn’t had any in this campaign (unless you count locking up the Nazi vote to be a success).
19. Chad
I have heard this blather from a number of Chicken Littles, not just Dr. No supporters. And I have looked back, sideways, forward, under the bed and in the closet, and have yet to identify an instance where my civil rights have been restricted since September 11. There is not a single thing I did before that date that I cannot do now (other than travel to Mexico with only a driver’s license and go through airport security with my shampoo, neither of which I consider infringements on my rights any more than passing through a metal detector to get to the courtroom).
So I would like to hear from those LST readers who have been deprived of their civil rights by Geo Bush and the Patriot Act. I’m sure there must be thousdands, since we are told as much by everyone from Noam Chomsky to Ron Paul to Barbra Streisand (none of whom, by the way, are in custody for exercising their Constitutional rights).
You say that Dr. Paulson has been warning of a danger to our rights for over a decade - well before 9-11. Well, I haven’t noticed my rights toeday to be more restricted than they were 10 years ago. Please tell me what I should be missing.
Did you ever think perhaps Dr. Earmarks is just a kooky contrarian who says the opposite of what everyone in his (alleged) party says? It is, after all, one way to draw attention to yourself. Just like the kid in third grade.
Why don’t you focus on the main threat to our freedom and quit worrying about these fringe elements to our society? Let Art Bell have a little bit to work with.
I agree completely. My father literally died in my arms in the parking lot of VA Hospital waiting for doctors to attend to his heart attack. It was disgraceful. That doesn’t give soldiers the right to ignore regulations with which they disagree.
I am sorry to hear that. I recently saw a news broadcast where they had ignored cancer that someone serving in Iraq had and they told him to wait until he got back to the states and then it was too late. It was heart breaking.
Still, once you get into the cycle of deployments then it is hard to get out when your contract is up. They even hold up retirement where deployment is concerned. They signed a contract, but when the contract is up then they should be allowed to get out if that is what they want to do. You have to take into account that some of the people who are doing this may be in this catogory, and that to me is unfair to people who have served this country.
Now if they signed a contract and they we not forced to serve past that, then it would not be wise to go against the rules. People don’t dare use cell phones on bases, they will pull over to make calls. You don’t even break the smallest of rules.
Ron Paul will undo what the military had done so far. He wants to lose a war that we are winning. Period. For that he is in my book, a coward or an idiot. Soldiers that signed up to serve this country don’t support him. The ones that signed up for a college education or government cheese want out because they are being asked to do what the military does. Fight wars. I agree with Ron Paul on many issues, ubt on this and a few others, he ought to have his head gear checked. That, and the troofers and nazis….
I will be voting against those that will lose a war and suck up to Euroweenies and jihadists. That would include Ron Popiel, B-lack Osama, and the Water Retaining Sea Cow.
I’ll be holding my nose for sure, Romney or McCain, not totally happy with either. But, I’ll take a C student any day over a drooling moron.
Do you think and non - tin foil hat wearing person will really vote for RP - - not likely
Ron Paul gets a higher % in the actual votes. He has come in second several times. Why do these not count? Once the primaries start then the actual votes should determine who the front runner is. Plus people have a right to hear unbias coverage of all of the candidates. No matter who they are.
In my opinion he did not run for the nomination, he ran to start a movement.
fasternu
“Ron Paul will undo what the military had done so far. He wants to lose a war that we are winning.”
Who told you we were winning? I would like to read the reports that say we are.
Paulistinians:
Answer these questions.
How Long has Dr Paul been in office?
What legislation has he passed?
After finding those answers, is he an effective legislator?
No?
Sheila Jackson Lee has probably been a more effective legislator (only in getting her bills introduced and passed) She has passed more bills than Dr Paul.
Ronald Paul missed 684 of 7034 votes (10%) since Jan 7, 1997.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?tab=roles&id=400311
Sheila Jackson-Lee missed 322 of 7034 votes (5%) since Jan 7, 1997.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?tab=roles&id=400199
Tell me again how he’s going to make big change? Shelia Jackson-Lee at least showed up twice as much as he did.
This is insane, being in that war is going to be our downfall. Any terriorist could come over here right now and take people out. We could not even stop them when we weren’t in a war, how could we stop them now? The military should be protecting our borders and airspace. Besides I wonder what the % is for say death by terriorist vs just about anything else that we face as Americans.
44
Read some reports from someone that’s been there. Not a reporter holed up in a hotel that runs to the site of a bomb blast to get their story.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/
“FALLUJAH – The United States military plans to formally hand over Anbar Province to the Iraqis this spring because the insurgency truly is finished in that part of the country. Most Americans have heard about the success in this province by now, but few seem to be aware that the cities of Anbar were the scenes of the most ferocious fighting: Ramadi, Haditha, and – worst of all – Fallujah.
The Americans in Fallujah are focused now on what they expect to be their last mission: the training of the Iraqi Police to replace the Marines. ”
But, I guess some Christianne Ammanpour is a better source because her agenda may fit yours. And, I have personal contacts there.
No, he hasn’t. Only once.
IA - 5th with 10%
NH - 5th with 8%
WY - 4th (non-binding)
MI - 4th with 6%
SC - 5th with 4%
NV - 2nd with 14%
FL - 5th with 3%
ME - 3rd with 19% (non-binding)
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/candidates/#302
“being in that war is going to be our downfall.”
How? By pulling out and giving the enemy a victory. We win every battle, but lose in the media. People like you and Ron Paul hold a knife to the backs of those that are willing to win. Did you watch the Superbowl? Never quit, always play to win, Remember the Patton Speech?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDecLiA_Qbw
Or is that just too quaint for you? We should lose! Screw that, We are AMERICANS that means we should WIN! Period. I question the patriotism of ANYONE that would snatch a victory from, and leave a 0 in the win column for America’s military. It’s not a game, we are in a war for western values, jihadists versus the USA, their ideology knows no borders. They have no rules. Do we win or lose?
Sorry, have to get back to my Arabic lesson.
30
Your yarn is WAAAY out there. People make comments like that all the time. Now, if you were sending those as emails to let’s say..,… Waziristan in Pashtun, or in Arabic to Iran, they ought to pay you some attention. You are not a worthy target, really. The US Gov’t has their hands too full to monitor LST. Why should they? They should be looking at foreign communications, which is what the whole thing is about. People that are scared of the Patriot Act should realize that they are not that important. The CIA, NSA, or any other alphabet has no interest in YOU. You can relax. I’d be more worried about giving my information to Radio Shack when I buy batteries. Booga Booga!
wow 10%
Who is Sheila Jackson-Lee?
I have looked at the voting records of all the Candidates. What you should look into is what votes there were there and not there for.
Sorry that Ron Paul isn’t what you are looking for in a Candidate. He is what I am looking for. I have the right to vote and have my say as much as anyone.
We all know who runs things, it’s not us, but we should be. When you have to borrow money from other countries to fund a war you are in financial trouble. When companies from other countries are buy out American companies, not with the dollar but by obtaining the stocks in that company you are in more trouble. When you can’t go to the store and find anything made in America you know why we don’t have any jobs left. When these things are happening to America then you should start thinking about what is going to happen when the loans come due. When we can’t pay the mortgages on our houses that other countries now own what do you think they are going to do?
People need to be more concerned with who really owns America these days and what will happen when we are bankrupt. I am sure that it won’t be like one of Grandmaw’s loans.
If you don’t believe me watch the headlines on yahoo home page. See who is buying what and then look into who actually owns the companies.
This splitting of hairs needs to stop. But hey, look on the bright side.
“United we stand, divided we fall.”
Aesop
We know where we are headed.
C’mon now, that’s just not true. I buy American every day. No jobs left? Unemployment has been at historically low levels for years, and that’s with 20 million illegal aliens in the country. All these same things were said back in the ‘80 about the Japanese were going to own us. So much blather and fear-mongering.
We know where we’ve been.
I would love to know where you are buying American!!! Because I haven’t found anything.
hamous, I said, if you don’t believe me watch the headlines and then look up the companies and who owns what.
I did not say to take my word for it. I don’t want you to. I do not take other peoples words. I do the reasearch myself.
I will do something that I have noticed anti-Ron Paul people won’t do. They will not look into anything that anyone opposing their view says.
I am open minded, I do not stand firm on things that have the ability to change. I do not follow the crowd. That usually gets you into trouble. I like to be informed, even when I find something that I may have to admit I was wrong about.
Wakeup2change, giving credit where it’s due, there are more than a few folks around this blog that actually do their own math.
Trouble is, when it comes to Ron Paul they frequently conclude that 2 + 2 = 5
Hey, looky here! Thanks, Hammie! Another LST headline dedicated to Ron Paul, most likely prompted by post on yesterday’s open comment thread. I guess I should be…uh….flattered…well…kinda….sorta..
Anywayzzz, not having the time to beat a dead horse, especially when I have a pasture full of live ones to tend to today, I will merely reiterate what randyw #2 said - “I believe you have misrepresented the law. A military person is free to participate in the political process in any way he or she likes. However, he or she may not do so in uniform, which would give the impression of support from the military service to which the member belongs.”
bob42
Please back up what you just said. I would love to know what is right and wrong.
When it comes to Ron Paul they frequently conclude that 2 + 2 = We’re all gonna die because of BushCheneyNeoconUnjustwarBlackwaterblahblahblah…..
We are at war. We are winning. Unemployment is the lowest its ever been. Our economy is still GROWING… it slowed, but its still ahead of Europe. We have the best standard of living in the WORLD? Have you ever been outside the US??? You people are running around telling us how the sky is falling. Bunch of crap! Foreign companies are buying US companies. But, US companies are buying foreign companies at nearly the same rate. Really! The economy, like the weather fluctuates. Evidently you guys are doing pretty good since you are living indoors (I’m assuming this) and are using computers. You guys want change? Change into what? All you have is doom and gloom, what is dear leader going to do? He can’t get squat done in the Congress while Sheila Jackson-Lee gets her bills through.
Wakeuploosechange
You ain’t from around here are you? Sheila Jackson-lee is one of the biggest blowhards in the Congress. She is in a neighboring district to Paul. She is a libnut who thinks we should retrieve the flag Neil Armstrong planted on Mars when we do a MArs mission, yet she’s on the committee over NASA. A boob to say the least(I’ve met her), but more effective in getting her bills passed than Paul. Viva Camerones!
http://www.bea.gov/index.htm
I emailed LGF re this post - and we’ve been linked!
#56 - Yes it was indeed in response to your link yesterday. You’re welcome! Now, just like I told randyw, prove me wrong. I’ve provided links to the military regs proving that it is against the rules for active duty members to support any candidate in this manner. All I get from you is “you have misrepresented the law”. Show me where and I’ll stand corrected.
wakeup - watch out, bob42 is one of your own ; - )
“KentBook,”
Without debating the veracity of your claim (“why is it that y’all only show up when there is honest criticism….”), my response to your question is this: If someone disagrees with an author’s analysis or opinion, why shouldn’t they “show up”?
If you held a firm set of opinions regarding a candidate (or any topic) and read an article which you thought was inaccurate, misinformed, biased, et cetera, wouldn’t you want the opportunity to voice counter-argument(s)?
“hamous,”
You wrote: “They’re suppressin’ his message? C’mon, Dr. Paul has gotten more media coverage than any minor candidate in the history of this country that consistently pulls less than 5%.”
Evidently you approve of how mainstream media allocates coverage. I’ll use this presidential campaign as an example when considering your implications. At the beginning, the major media sources informed us who the “front runner” or “top tier” candidates were. Among them and polling often in first place was former Mayor Giuliani. He received considerable media coverage, debate time, et cetera, during the entire campaign. Despite consistently strong showings in national polls, however, he received little actual support from voters . The media which you seem willing to justify gave former Mayor Giuliani what can arguably be described as lavish coverage, while marginalizing or frequently ignoring certain other candidates. As a result, that portion of the voting public which relies upon mainstream media sources for their information did not hear (or heard very little of) the “message” from these other candidates.
The argument can be made that mainstream media misallocated their coverage, overexposing some candidates and underexposing others.
You also claimed:
“The media have been more than generous in their exposure of Ron Paul.”
Your opinion is at variance with the experiences expressed by many of your fellow citizens.
Writing from my own experience, I will relate the following: Yesterday morning I was listening to National Public Radio on my way to work. They aired two separate segments on politics, mentioning Senators Clinton, McCain, and Obama and former Governors Huckabee and Romney. Omitted from the discussion were Congressman Paul and former Senator Gravel, both of whom are still running. MSNBC’s coverage a little later did the same. As did CBS last night.
And finally, you asked this:
“Can you explain to me why every organized, self-proclaimed fascist group in the country supports Ron Paul?”
When did you complete your survey? What is the total number of such groups in the United States? How and when did you contact them to determine your findings?
You attempted to discredit Congressman Paul’s military support.
Do you still expect us to take you and your article at face value when you ask a question which has as its premise such a radical claim?
Greetings, LGFers.
Wakeup2change, It’s all in the archives, and you can do a site specific search from google, or use the search entry field at the top of the page to find postings related to Ron Paul and things such as NAZI, Truther (or “troofer”) that seem to fascinate some of the contributers here.
A classic example of the 2+2=5 scenario is present in this thread as well as the archives, where Ron Paul supporters are asked to name successful legislation that he sponsored. While it’s true that they are few in number, the premise of the question itself is flawed, as it assumes that all or most legislation is good. This is inconsistent with a fundamental axiom of true conservatism, that good government is only as large and intrusive as it needs to be, and no more. By my logic, a good legislator is one that votes down bills that needlessly expand government power or the nanny state, and tries to repeal existing laws that overstep their bounds, and relentlessly hounds entire departments for stepping on states rights or operating in secrecy without just cause.
All the facts indicate that Ron Paul is orders of magnitude more conservative than any of the wrapped in the flag Reagan wannabes. But the bottom line: He differs with the prevailing opinion on Iraq around here, and that’s apparently enough to convince a lot of folks that a big government liberal leaning RINO would be a better president.
As Mr. Spock might say, “Most illogical”
(uh-oh… I’ve just opened myself up for some trekkie flack.)
bob, actually it does not assume that all legislation is good, it assumes that the job of a legislator is to legislate. Therefore, the effectiveness of a legislator should take into account how many of his issues have been enacted through legislation.
Bob I agree with Paul on a bunch of things, but when he goes off the reservation, he goes Lyndon Larouche kind off the reservation.
That and he has a whiny voice…. can’t do whiny voice…
Here’s a good Ron Paul bill:
H.R. 4077
To authorize the interstate traffic of unpasteurized milk and milk products in final package form for human consumption when the milk or milk product originates in a State that allows the sale of unpasteurized milk and milk products in final package form and is destined for another State that allows the sale of unpasteurized milk and milk products in final package form.
Is this a pressing issue down there near Galveston? Because I know how all those dairy farms in Galveston and Lake Jackson need to sell their unpasturized milk and all….. Ron Paul, Rockport dairy farmers’ best friend!
Oh and can’t forget the shrimpers…..
…and nazis, can’t forget the nazis.
I, and several other contributors here, spent several weeks slogging through their cesspools on the internet. I’ve linked to all their repugnant sites on these pages showing the “Ron Paul for President” banners pasted all over their front pages. I read through countless comments of their scumbag acolytes. Feel free to look through the archives here and see what I mean. I know you won’t and I’m used to you guys coming in here and disputing or dismissing the proof we’ve presented. Frankly, I don’t really care anymore. The truth is the truth whether you accept it or not.
You know, war really sucks. My dad served from 1939 to 1952. He was listed as missing and presumed dead at Pearl Harbor. He was wounded at Midway. He served at Tulagi/Guadalcanal from 7Aug42 to 7Feb43. He landed weighing 160 lbs. Let left weighing 98 lbs with 106.9 degree fever. The Marines were going to send him up The Slot for more combat, but the doctors said no and shipped him back to a hospital stateside. He retured for Saipan, Okinawa, and occupation and Nagasaki, then for Korea.
My oldest brother was in the hospital in Danang with sharpnel in his brain, spine, kidneys, and legs. His platoon commander came to the hospital and told him he needed him….he was out of veterans - my brother having 4 1/2 months of combat experience at that time.
The military has never had the best of anything except - for the most part - weapons. Life in the military is Spartan at best. Senior officers wives getting preferential treatment has been the norm since the inception of military hospitals. It is only new to the uninitiated. However, when you go to the hospitals that treat our wounded warriors, you’ll find the care and commitment there beyond compare. I’ve seen it first hand. Trying being on a burn ward sometime…it ain’t fun.
Perhaps I had an advantage growing up in a Spartan environment with little and learning to make do without complaining. Reading about what our warriors have endured from Valley Forge to Fallujah, their courage and sacrifices, well, that sure makes a wait in a hospital waiting room seem pretty insignicant.
The VA hospitals, they’re run by civilians who don’t give a damn. When my dad was dying we took him to Herman Memorial in the Woodlands, and he got great care. The last words he heard were from a male nurse holding his hand. The nurse happened to have also been a Marine. He said Semper Fi to my dad as he was going. My dad gripped his hand and then passed to God.
I will tell you this. I’m surrounded by military here on Oahu. Most don’t know who Ron Paul is, aren’t political at all, and have no complaints about military health care here. All they really want is for their husbands to return safely.
Someday I’ll learn to spell shrapnel!
68 hammie
That’s why I’m so irreverent about Dr Paul. They come into a thread go bat crap then disappear. Some are cool and make good sense, but I can’t go all the way with them (that whole nazi troofer and let the other guys win the war thingie). The other 99.999% need Antipsychotic Meds.
Sorta like getting onto a crowded elevator and letting everyone share in the bean burrito you had for lunch, then expecting them to enjoy it too.
Well said big45!
66. Fasternu, I agree that H.R. 4077 is a good bill, but I figure “Big Milk” would disagree.
According to the link about military regulations, you are full of poop. The following is copied and pasted from your link:
DODD 1344.10, August 2, 2004
2
4. POLICY
It is DoD policy to encourage members of the Armed Forces (hereafter referred to as
“members”) to carry out the obligations of citizenship. While on active duty, however,
members are prohibited from engaging in certain political activities. The following DoD
policy shall apply:
4.1. General
4.1.1. A member on active duty may:
4.1.1.1. Register, vote, and express his or her personal opinion on political
candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces.
4.1.1.2. Make monetary contributions to a political organization.
4.1.1.3. Attend partisan and nonpartisan political meetings, rallies, or
conventions as a spectator when not in uniform.
#69 big - This is one boy that will never take another human being to a VA Hospital. Stupid me, there was another hospital right across the street but I figured the VA hospital was the best place to take a Marine. How wrong I was…
Bob42, something that was pointed out earlier was that Ron Paul always voted against earmarks, but had no trouble accepting them after they were passed. Here’s some things to look at. Has Ron Paul ever had any legislation passed? If so, what was it and how did it affect his district? Paul Bettencourt slashed the cost of his office when he took over and has done well controlling his administrative costs. How does Ron Paul’s personal office expenses compare to the top/bottom of other congressional reps? Does he walk the walk and talk or just talk the talk? How is Ron Paul at handling matters related to his constituents? Does he take care of their problems? Does he try and find non governmental sources to assist them?
What is Ron Paul going to do with all that campaign money? Had Ron Paul been back on the air with Edd and Pat to take questions from people in his own back yard? Does Ron Paul have town meetings that are not about elections? If so, are people who do not support him allowed to air their questions, or are they shouted down?
Those are some things you should be asking about your candidate. In other words, when it comes time off the campaign trail, how do they really conduct themselves?
debbie - what part of:
are you having difficulty understanding?
Hamous, in 1990 I had a friend was was an old Guadalcanal veteran who got prostate cancer. The doctor was supposed to remove all of the prostate, but only removed part of it. My mother was a nurse with his wife, and she knew he was an alcoholic.
The cancer returned. He lost his leg, and then his life. At the same time his wife was ill in another hospital. I often times slept on the floor next to his bed to ensure he got proper care.
The night before he died he pushed the button several times to get pain medicine, only to have a nurse tell him he wasn’t hurting that bad.
Oh, most VA hospitals are “teaching” hospitals for medical schools. Houston is for Baylor. They use our veterans as “examples” I guess. They wouldn’t dare try giving that shoddy kind of care in most regular hospitals. If you ever need quality care, I can strongly recommend Herman Memorial in the Woodlands.
Everyone,
I thought you might be interested in the following (from the Center for Responsive Politics) which came out about 50 minutes ago:
“MILITARY DONORS FAVOR ANTIWAR CANDIDATES: Individuals in the Army, Navy and Air Force made those branches of the armed services among the top contributors in the 4th Quarter, ranking No. 13, No. 18 and No. 21, respectively. In 2007, Republican Ron Paul, who opposes U.S. involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, was the top recipient of money from donors in the military, collecting at least $212,000 from them. Barack Obama, another war opponent, was second with about $94,000.”
I’d like to see the list of military donors. Since campaign finances are public information, let them publish the names.
Okay, I’m sorry. Some folks have pointed out that we are letting a minor, insignificant candidate take up valuable space. If we’re going to examine Ron Paul, let’s really look at his record at home on office performance, expenses, legislation he’s proposed, passed, benefited from, and then bring it out in the context of his race against Chris Peden. Right now, that’s the only place Ron Paul matters.
Charles, the Center for Responsive Politics runs the website opensecrets.org that I link to in the story. As I clearly stated in my post, no one is disputing that Ron Paul received the largest amount of money from those describing themselves as associated with “military”. That in no way proves “the troops” support Ron Paul.
Big45, I had you figured as one of the ones that did their own math around here. I don’t have time to google the HR#s, but maybe this will help get you started.
Ron Paul has indeed sponsored or cosponsored legislation that eventually passed. Other times, he’s sponsored bills and amendments that were squashed in committee to avoid an embarrassing floor debate that would force the professional politicians to justify their corporatist, big government, nanny-stater insults to our intelligence. And on other occasions, his actions have resulted in productive floor debate that forced proponents of bad legislation to alter or attenuate its extent. Again, judging legislator effectiveness by number of laws passed is superficial.
Ron Paul has never taken a congressional junket or lobbyist funded boon-dongle. Every year he returns a portion of his congressional office budget to the general fund, and he refuses to participate in the creamy congressional pension program. But again, for those that do their own math, this is old news.
I can add my more subjective experience to what’s available online. I lived in Galveston for about 12 years and wrote my congressman four times. Each letter received a prompt and personal response that didn’t dance around the question. For comparison, I wrote Tom Delay’s office twice and receive a canned form letter in return, both times.
By any reasoned and logical measure, Ron Paul is an admirable statesman as well as an effective and constitutionally responsible legislator (imho.)
And he’s got 65 earmarks for FY 2008 that he voted against before voting for to prove it!
Bob, sometimes they actually want me to do work around here, so I haven’t had time to research it in the last 30 minutes since I first posed the question. You have pointed out several admirable things. How about things that actually need doing in his district. What are his accomplishments?
Is Ron Paul or any other elected official obligated to return direct contributions from members of the military?
79
Center for Responsive Politics
I wonder how much Soros money is behind those guys?
hamous- I see that you got that from the link to About.com, but in the DOD document I linked to and cited I can find no such regulation. I will be glad to concede the point if you can find documentation better than About.com. Also, I don’t get what you are saying here:
Cannot - Allow or cause to be published partisan political articles signed or written by the member that solicits votes for or against a partisan political party, candidate, or cause.
I did not see a mention of an active duty military employee soliciting votes or signing articles.
Fasternu, is that the same George Soros that though Jewish, posed as a Christian and helped the Nazis seize Jewish properties, and later said those were some of the best years of his life?
89 big45
Yup………… The salad days.
debbie
From the DoD directive:
I see they opened up Rondoras Box again
A presidential candidate named Paul,
Amongst conservatives cast quite a pall,
“They call me a throwback
Because I say ‘blowback,’
But all sorts of names they will call.”
“I shall ignore those names!” said the man,
“And carry on the best that I can!
With my groupies and minions,
Who share my opinions,
I will make my election a sham!”
/my head is still stuffed, I wanted to a better one, but my muse was banging me over the head to generate SOMETHING
Who’d a thunk it?
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YzA5ZDM3OWRhMTVjMzg1OTI5NGFiZTY0YjQ4OTU2NzQ=
Re: VA Hospitals
Like it or not, it is almost impossible to find beds and the medical/psych care needed for our vets who suffer from alcohol/chemical dependency and who have no other insurance. The VA hospital programs are the exception to the rule.
It’s no picnic and far from perfect, but it IS available and they do their best with what little $$ they have to work with. Without their medical intervention, many vets would die during alcohol withdrawal, which is far more dangerous a detox process than any other drug.
Hamous - I’m still with Debbie on this one. According to the ABOUT.COM website you linked to, active duty members of the armed services can
As you say, they cannot make monetary contributions directly to a political candidate himself but they aren’t writing checks to Ron Paul himself, who is considered a Federal employee, they are contributing to his ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Now, back to mucking out stalls - which , incidentally, I find to be the perfect practice exercise for dealing with misinformation online. Shoveling sh*it out of the way to get to a clean, bare, surface…what fun…NOT!
Shiner, not according to The Center for Responsive Politics. The donations are made to Ron Paul.
Go here and type in Paul as the recipient, US Army as the donor’s occupation, and select 2008 election cycle. You’ll have to type in an anti-spam code to run the search.
http://opensecrets.org/indivs/index.asp
Oh good grief. I have no idea what an anti-spam code is…., maybe?
Open Secrets does look like a very handy website to bookmark, however. . I’ll explore it further when I figure out how.
Still, common sense leads me to believe when they say “contributed to Ron Paul”, they mean contributed to his presidential election committee, no? I find it hard to believe people are making out checks to or slipping cash to Ron Paul himself. But then, nothing in politics would surprise me anymore…
After the word “maybe” I typed “No Hormel” with a bunch of code-like doohickeys. But I see it printed out as …,
Goodness only knows where that weak attempt at levity went in cyberspace!
Something that might have been missed from yesterday, big45iron pointed out some stats:
Active Duty Military: 1,426,713
Reserve Military: 1,458,500
Total Military: 2,885,213
Ron Paul Military: 1,160
That means 0.04% of “the troops support Ron Paul”. That is insignificant. Yeah, yeah, he’s got a blimp.
Shiner, at the bottom of the form there is an image with numbers and/or letters that you have to read then type in a box. It’s very easy. And that site is very handy. That’s where we traced the Nazi money from ; - )
My only add to this is, for those of us that served and while on base had to go to the infirmary, enlisteds only see inlisteds (coprsman iin Navy) and at least my experience was you had to be runnig temp of 102 to see actual DR. (officer), otherwise it was sudafed and tylenol–to get antibiotics or curing drugs, had to come from DR. Fine, but the wait was intermidable–now, at least my wife & kids saw Drs.. What I see from my experience is what we’ll get with HRC or BO’s natilnal Health Care–no thanks.
Mike Gravel?
Johnfive… Uhhhh, Dennis Kucinich?
But seriously folks, did you know that the letters in Dennis Kucinich’s name can be re-arranged to form a phrase that would be likely to launch HAL into a frenzy?
but, bob, there’s no F in Kucinich’s name.
True, but when the anagram contains the words nine inch the F is pretty much implied.
I know I’m late in catching up, but Charles left this to Hamous–
No. 1–It was NPR, MSNBC & CBS
No. 2–Gravel is STILL running?
No. 3–Neither have surpassed 6% in a National Poll–air time is expensive. I’m still in shock that he was in the CA debate–but then it was CNN
LOL! I’ve been sitting here unscrambling but “nine inch” never entered my thoughts.
Do you mind if I whip out my big 10″?
…Record of the band that plays the blues?
Self moderated but it was a good-un…
Two clues - nine inches and leaning to the right.
#111 - LOL - Reminds me of Jim Carrey in Liar Liar:
Hey, Fletcher, how’s it hanging?
Short, shriveled, and always to the left!
hamous- You MIGHT be right, but maybe not. Obama and Paul got a lot of press out of this Q4 FEC report so, here’s what I’m thinking: Paul gets no attention, but do you think Hillary’s hit squad wouldn’t be all over Obama’s camp if there was even the slightest possibility of impropriety? It might not be true for you, but I know sharper minds than mine are being paid to dig through this stuff 24/7 looking for dirt.
And about the 0.04% of military donors- I bet less than 0.04% of bankers and pharmacists donated to political campaigns, but who do you think is funding the “top tier” candidates? Finance, Health Care (ins. and pharm.) and, oh yeah-the defense industry.
What is different about Paul, and Obama for that matter, is that they have more first time voters and first time donors supporting them than any candidates ever. People are waking up to the fact that there is little difference between the Democrats and the Republicans and they see that the mainstream media vets information before putting it out there. The internet changes everything. It may not happen in ‘08, but trust me; the times they are a changin. I personally can’t wait!! I’ve been a registered Republican for 25 years but I gave up on the party because it no longer stands for small government, personal responsibility and liberty, and avoiding entanglements. I was raised to believe that if you work hard enough in a free market society then your efforts will be rewarded and that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Today, it’s almost impossible to tell who is a Dem and who is a Rep. As I heard someone say earlier today, the Dems want to raise taxes 10% and the Republicans only want to raise them *%. Disgusted, I re-registered as an independent in December. Just a few days later, I sat down at my computer and remembered that I had intended to find out what the “Google Ron Paul” signs meant. Lo and behold! Ron Paul’s message was the message I’d been raised to believe in. So, I’m giving a true conservative one last chance and if that doesn’t work, I’m on the liberal’s gravy train. My taxes go all over the world to blow up bridges and rebuild them and pay for medical care in third-world countries-why shouldn’t I support printing monopoly money for bridges and medical care here at home? If you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em!
No, I don’t think Ron Paul will get the nomination, but I hope he runs as an Independent. I just wish he were about 10 years younger so that he could have another run or two at the White House.
I’m scared to death that if McCain or Clinton gets into the White House we will mount a “preemptive” war on some country that we recently armed. I just want to work hard, spend time with my family, and mind my own business and I have to believe that mothers and fathers all over the world simply want the same thing. It is time to quit bossing the rest of the world around and give peace a chance!!!!
Bob42 hearts Debbie!
No. 3–Neither have surpassed 6% in a National Poll–air
Ron Paul came in second in Nevada, ahead of McCain. He came in second in the Louisiana caucus, and he got more delegates in Maine than McCain did. He also beat Rudy everywhere but Florida.
“time is expensive”
So what? That gives the media the right to narrow the field for the rest of us? I don’t know about you, but I like the illusion that I still live in a republic.
This explains a lot about the intelligence levels of Ron Paul Supporters.
Do you folk even realize that there is a difference between a
POLITICAL ORGANIZATION
and
AN INDIVIDUAL CANDIDATE?
The regulations are as specific and clear today as when I was in the Army and they were explained to me.
You can donate to a Party, but not to a specific candidate.
Period.
Texas test case
If you think such fretting is silly, says Bradley Smith, consider the case of Bill Liles, who faced an FEC inquiry when Mr. Smith was commissioner. In 2000, a businessman in the little Texas town of Muleshoe, Harvey Bass, painted “Save our nation: Vote Democrat Al Gore for president” on a beat-up box and plunked it on his furniture store’s porch.
Sick of looking at it, Mr. Liles and a friend pasted a “bigger and better” poster praising W on a trailer and parked it across from Mr. Bass’ store. This was too much for local Don Dyer, who complained to the FEC that Mr. Liles’ sign lacked mandated disclosures about who paid for it and whether Mr. Bush signed off on it.
Though the FEC in the end let Mr. Liles and his fellow activists off, the men had, in fact, broken not just disclosure rules but any number of other regulations, too, recalls Mr. Smith. They had clearly spent a bit more than $250 on their makeshift sign, for example, but hadn’t reported it, as required, to the FEC. “Total statutory penalties could have easily exceeded $25,000,” Mr. Smith observes.
How different is Mr. Liles’ praiseworthy activism from that of many political bloggers? The medium differs, but Mr. Liles, like a blogger, is simply voicing his opinion. And this was pre-McCain-Feingold. Even if the FEC starts by regulating only a little bit of Web politics, instead of the extensive oversight it had at first planned - and a laxer regime is likelier, thanks to the fierce outburst from political blogs, right and left, when they discovered their freedom of speech under fire - there’s no guarantee that the commission won’t steadily expand its reach later.
115: Debbie–NATIONAL POLLS–Re: RCP (avg.), or others–not Caucus wins or places–they put these guys on debates and the AIR with poll numbers, that’s why we are only having to deal with 5 guys and a gal, now versus (what>)15 that started out. We should be 2 each side, but 2 stubborn a++holes dargging this out. The fellows that dropped out were better or the same as RP, and yet he stays around and drags the Party down with his selfishly staying in the race for what? Why is he still there? He’s got 4 delegates–why drag this out–he’s not going to be the nom, he’s not going to get a job out of it (niether will Huck, BTW). He came in 2nd once & 3rd in another CAUCUSii–not even Primaries, in Primaries he hasn’t done squat.
Well folks I’m outta here for the evening. On a nearby liberal blog, I read that some dems are getting together at a local watering hole to watch the returns. It should be interesting to see these folks discuss Hillary and Obama after they’ve had a few margaritas.
And of course, I’ll be wearing some Ron Paul paraphernalia… Heck, I think I might even re-install the gun rack and add an additional sticker to the F-150.
You go Bob!
Bob, are you going to Joe’s Cafe in Clear Lake?
Dude, wear a body condom. That is John Coby’s (can’t remember his real name) group. Nasty bunch. Foul mouthed as can be.
KentBook- If the media’s blackout of RP had been recent, I might see your point, but RP (and other candidates) have been excluded from the beginning. Other than Rudy and Thompson being crowned frontrunners by the media before campaigning barely got started, what credentials did they have to be invited to debates when candidates who beat them were not? Talking about candidates on the news continually is as good, or better, than paid commercials and there used to be “equal time” statutes that were enforced. I’m sorry, but letting the media give you and the American public their short-list is a cop-out. That is my point exactly- some of us are waking up and taking back our rights and responsibilities.
As for dragging the party down, how come everything Ron Paul has said in debates has been picked up by the rest of the crew as if it were original? Examples: I heard Mitt say he wants to abolish the Dept. of Ed. and return control to the states. Funny, RP said it first. In fact he voted against No Child Left Behind calling it “No Bureaucrat Left Behind.” In one of the debates he says something along the lines of “let me get this right- we’re going to borrow the money from China and give it to Musharraf….” Then I heard the Huck say about the tax rebate checks..”let me get this right, were going to borrow the money from China and turn around and spend it at WalMart on Chinese imports.” I wish I could remember more now and I wish I had time to look up the exact quotes. They are all on YouTube if you care to do the research. Anyway, even though you may not think he has much to say the other republicans are listening to RP and they know they better start saying some of the things Paul does. They know where their money comes from and its not from the average joe who is contributing to RP’s campaign.
Gotta go study-big test tomorrow. I don’t want you to think I’m a cut and run psycho. Maybe I’ll check back to see what else you can throw at me:)
Well here I am, mobile blogging from Joe’s Grill in Clear Lake.. So far so good… The natives seem to be ignoring me and are going about their normal activities. Some are adorned with Hillary stuff while others are have decorated thmselves in a more Obamistic fashion. So far there has been no infighting, but I suppose there’s always hope.
I spoke briefly with John Coby and he seems nicer than most. I’m well equipped to handle anything that may go down, but just in case… If I don’t post on the OC thread in the AM, please launch the emergency extraction crew.
Sorry bob42, John Coby and nice just don’t go together. Sort of a human oxymoron.
That’s the place I’d like to wear my old tee shirt showing an Ohio class nuclear sub and a mushroom cloud on the horizon…said: 24 empty missiles tubes, some mushroom clouds, and now it’s Miller Time.
Big–I used to have a poster of a B1 flying towrad the viewer with a mushroom cloud behind it, samesame
/I loved that poster.
I wear my “Commies Aren’t Cool” No Che shirt.
Who is John Coby ?
Good job! You really did us all a favor digging up that little tid-bit of information. It’s amazing to me that this is the sort of thing Ron Paul dis-creditor’s are able to find.
Keep up the good work!
Until you find a campaign killer,
Ron Paul Supporter
#130 Yet it always seems to get the Chuckleheads frothing at the mouth, which is all we’re really after anyway.
PS - in case you haven’t noticed 96% of the American public pulled the plug on the RP campaign quite some time ago.
That’s okay Hamous, the (supposed) 4% of us still believe strongly enough in small/responsive gov’t, individual liberty, and the few honest statesmen to keep liberty burning. I’m not trying to win converts here, but I truly believe that he is the best candidate we’ve had for decades in everything that counts. In the mean time we’ll just keep trying to ‘learn’ people on the issues.
You may say that I’m a dreamer,
but I’m not the only one,
maybe someday you’ll join us,
AND WE CAN BE FRIGGIN FREE!
Chad, while we disagree on RP I admire your passion and your ability to remain grounded. I think you’re outnumbered. IMO, some of the more rabid supporters have actually hurt RP’s chances of gaining ground and have created a cultish feel about the whole campaign.
I must say it’s a bit ironic you quoted a John Lennon song extolling the virtues of socialism
Note, I used it to my own ends though…lol
Honestly though, no one should let a vocal minority (rowdies) or a vocal majority (big media) heavily influence their decisions for them. Everyone should take the time to actually determine which candidate has an intelligent and workable platform, and is also trustworthy enough to do what he says.
As for why there seems to be so many rowdies, I’d place it on 3 reasons.
#1 Like I said yesterday, its just the massive amounts stopping by because they wanna put in their two cents.
#2 A lot of RP supporters are relatively new and inexperienced to status quo politics, and they are very much emotionally tied to the ideals of the RP campaign (which could cause an emotional crash for them, but I don’t see anyone else actually giving a flying flip about the platforms of Pretty Boy or Crash (a legit nickname considering he did 4 times outside of combat) other than they think they are the a) the lesser of evils, or b) the winner to be.
and #3 all of the negative waves aimed at the RP campaign…summed up here: http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin425.htm
All valid points. My problem, and something readers here never see, are the comments that never get published because they are so vile. The representation of those types of people in the RP movement are not insignificant. Had the doctor made even a minimal effort to distance himself from such people I would not be so critical of him. You lie down with dogs…
Well like I said in #23 some of those people have legitimate reasons to support Dr. Paul. If he were to drive those people away because of their beliefs how could we trust him when he says he believes in upholding civil liberties? Part of viewing life as a libertarian is judging individuals by how THEY act, or if you’re feeling charitable by how they perceive themselves to be acting.
You also have to remember that the RP campaign is completely decentralized and fairly disorganized. RP has no control over the individuals that support him, and he wouldn’t want it if he could. There really are some people who are fringe weirdos in this world, and they aren’t very good at expressing themselves in person either. So they use the mask of the internet to say and do things that are inexcusable and would get some sweet chin music in real life.
Just for giggles, how many harsh articles have been posted here about other campaigns? Gotten any ugly comments as a response? If you broke them all down into percentages by candidate would the RP group by more abusive by 10%, 25%, 1000%?
Also from what I’ve seen here some blame should be taken by those who frequent this site. A good 1/3rd of the people responding to me or others have been relatively abusive or used rude names that those who responded (in this thread) haven’t earned. If I hadn’t gotten a positive response from post #11 I would’ve left, maybe with a parting shot…but I wouldn’t have stuck around. So its possible you’re just getting the bad side of people as well.
No candidate has been spared our rath, but RP has probably been written about disproportionately. But hey, that’s what free speech is all about, right?
A few but usually arguments for and against are laid out and well-reasoned. RP threads ALWAYS contain the most comments by a factor of at least 10 and sometimes 50. I can count on one hand the number of commenters that fall into the non-abusive category. You make six.
You’re right. My only excuse for that is the months and months of abuse leveled at them by the troofers, Nazis, and white supremacists have caused them to immediately distrust any RP supporter. I personally have been working on that. I try real hard to distinguish those coming here for a real debate vs the “It’s all the Joooz fault!” crowd.
And I guess that’s my point. You don’t have to welcome those types of people into your movement to allow them to exercise their 1st amendment rights. You don’t welcome groups like NAMBLA. Why welcome fascists? We’ll never know but if you (and RP) told the 2% of nutjobs associated with the campaign to go piss up a rope you would probably add 5-10% more to the base.
Well when I catch someone misrepresenting the RP campaign egregiously then I point out that they don’t speak for RP and that they have x, y, and z screwed up. But we are talking about the internet world here. If those people self identify their best cause as being with RP and they don’t view themselves as being FUBAR compared to everyone else they probably wouldn’t stop anyhow.
Yes, he could say that, but how much more negative media attention would that bring to the issue? In all likelihood at least 98+% of those making remarks truly do “support” RP in name, but I don’t doubt that there are also some trouble makers that go around stirring up shiite. There is a guy in many RP threads who is nuckinfuts rabid about his hate for RP, and he vents it everywhere. I have no doubt that there are others who feel the same way and are malicious enough to try and undermine him.
In all honesty though much of RPs base feel disenfranchised for one reason or another. Some really do belong way-y-y out of bounds. I know that in my meet-up group if someone starts talking about jacked up side issues we ask them to cool it, because it isn’t conducive to a coalition of the disaffected, it does turn people off. But every one of us has our built in and learned biases, some valid some not.
And some of the truther stuff spreads virally, can’t really blame that on anyone. When people stop trusting the institutions that have been a part of their whole life (gov’t & media) then they start to question the validity of a lot of things. Some of the truther stuff really does have enough validity to scare the beejeebers out of you if you actually give it time to look at it. I haven’t looked into too much of it myself, because I really don’t want to live inside sandbags with a tinfoil hat…but with the little I have seen it is conceivable that such a way of life should not be inconceivable.
Just reading the wikipedia entries on things like the CFR, Operation Northwoods, Ruby Ridge, MK Ultra, Sibel Edmonds, Cointelpro, etc are enough to make your head whip around. And those are the ones that are more or less admitted to by the Gov’t, and are just barely under the radar of most Americans; imagine what else lies in the deep shadows. The wiki CFR page alone was enough to make me howl in rage. I will say if you don’t want to be upset about the world around you, you may not want to look into those too deeply.
I had a long post all typed up and it disappeared. Oh well. Thanks for the pleasant chat again.
As for the truthers, any good conspiracy has a grain or twenty of truth in them. If you want some scary bedtime stories that are just under the radar of most Americans may I recommend researching: Operation Northwoods, MK Ultra, Cointelpro, Sibel Edmonds, and the CFR. All of those are confirmed to have Gov’t involvement and examples of things that are deemed sanitized enough that they don’t feel the need to hide them. Makes you wonder what’s in the deep shadows. If nothing else for Giggles read up on the CFR on wikipedia, it got me pretty uptight and I’m not a truther.
I cleared it. It was the “s” word that hooked it.
chad, I’ve looked at all those exhaustively. It’s such a spaghetti-web of leads and links that in the end I find very little validity in it. My contention is this: public figures can’t even keep a sordid love affair between two people a secret. The amount of coverup and the number of people that would have to be involved in most of these theories would eliminate any reasonable possibility of it remaining a secret. They are fun to read though.
Well you’ve done more homework there than I have. I’ve probably not read more than a page or two on each. Gotta admit, what I have read sets of the danger alarms. It might just be that I subscribe to the bumper sticker message:
I love my country but fear my gov’t. (or more precisely in my case, fear what my gov’t will do to my country).
Off to bed, have a good’un. Oh and sorry ’bout the naughty word, I’m firmly in the George Carlin camp of words are just words.
I look at it this way - words are only offensive if they offend someone. If I don’t know the crowd I’m conversing with I follow this rule: Would the word offend my grandmother? If it would I don’t use it until I’m familiar with the crowd.
You anti Paul people have stated so many distortions and blatant non truths that I have no idea where to start.
Running your mouth about the ONLY candidate who is confirmed by the constitution only shows your true nature.
You have the right to say what ya like but remember……Even most of you critics state that Paul’s support is around 5%……What you forgot to mention is the fact that the revolution was fought by at the most 5% of Americans and most of the population fought with England. I’d wager that those are your ancestors. Saying nice things about the constitution and then supporting those who violate it is prevalent today so…..Carry on!
By the way…..I am ex Army who signed up 3 weeks after 9/11 and went to boot camp a couple months later. I volunteered to go to Afghanistan…….Until I realized that the establishment is full of shit. I got a general under honorable conditions discharge, 30 days in the brig and a demotion to private because I was speaking out against the Iraq war and refused to stop informing people of the fact that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and Saddam Hussein actually hated Osama. after spending two years in the military I refused to go to Iraq. I was court martialed for refusing to follow orders and destroying government property (I hit the wall behind my commanders head and broke two knuckles) but found innocent because of the testimony of over 40 fellow soldiers. Even though I was found not guilty I was sent to the brig because I was influencing others negatively and they needed to set an example.
That happened in Ft Lewis Washington and still a good story to tell because I convinced several people and influenced several others that they would be violating their oath by going to Iraq because……….It’s an unconstitutional war and was never declared by congress.
God bless America by sending big government straight to hell!
I am a veteran and have a number of veteran friends in my group and we ALL support Dr. Paul.
Supporting him matters more to us than his numbers.
RON PAUL WE ARE VOTING FOR YOU!!!!