The Austin American Statesman filed a TPIA request related to the costs of the raid in Eldorado.
The massive child welfare operation that began in early April with a state raid of a West Texas ranch owned by a polygamous sect cost nearly $7.5 million in the first 19 days, according to records from Gov. Rick Perry’s office.
A spokeswoman for Perry cautioned that the numbers — obtained through the Texas Public Information Act — are preliminary and unaudited, and Perry’s office has yet to release official costs.
But the numbers do reveal clues about the financial impact of what Texas officials have said is the largest removal of children in U.S. history.
$7.5 million is going to be but the tip of the iceberg in this one. Who should pay for it?
Technically, many of the court costs are the responsibility of the counties, but state leaders say they plan to use state money.
“We can’t wash our hands from it — we’re the ones who did it,” said state Sen. Bob Deuell, R-Greenville, a member of the Finance Committee. “I hope it turns out it was the right thing to do.”
Hope and a prayer, Sen. Deuell. What about the legal costs, which are not yet outlined?
A draft document from the governor’s office showed that the Office of Court Administration projected in late April that court costs for the civil and any criminal cases could be about $1.8 million, including everything from expert witnesses to jury pay.
Glenna Bowman, chief financial officer for the office, said Thursday that the next draft of her estimate will be closer to $2.2 million.
“We’re trying to look into our crystal ball,” she said.
You need a new crystal ball, Ms. Bowman. That’s less than $5,000 per case, for both sides. It costs more than that for a contested a traffic ticket. In this case, people’s lives are at stake. $5,000 is a drop in the bucket.
That giant sucking sound you hear all around the state comes from tort lawyers lighting cigars as they wait to get their hands on the state’s $10 billion dollar surplus.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:45 am
$5,000 to fight a traffic ticket?! Guess I’ll take Defensive Driving.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:47 am
Don’t worry, the Business tax will take care of us all. :0
May 16th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Yes, this is going to be very expensive and the expense is going to continue for some time.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:08 am
This is going to be more expensive than the tax payers are going to believe
May 16th, 2008 at 7:09 am
Because I don’t want to corrupt open comments with this…… because I know many are sick of reading about it, I am posting this here. This talks about the compound, and how they started, how they built it.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMISTS_FINANCES?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US
May 16th, 2008 at 8:14 am
So are we allowed as citizens to force the Texas government to make the counties to pay for this effort as it constitutionally mandated. I personally do not really want to pay for this action and would join a picket line to protest that.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:29 am
Can anyone finish this: “Cluster _____________”
May 16th, 2008 at 8:37 am
#7 Sure
… of child-abusing polygamists.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:38 am
A must read from Scrappleface
http://www.scrappleface.com/
May 16th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I think this information shows where the idea to raid was originated. Notice that the State is in a hurry to absorb the cost.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/T/TX_POLYGAMIST_RETREAT_COSTS_TXOL-?SITE=KSEV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
May 16th, 2008 at 8:47 am
I’ve wondered if funding might play a role in the decision to go forward with the raid, much like it was in Waco when AFT needed to make a big splash to justify it’s budget request to Congress. There’s also the “spend it or lose it” concept to deal with. However, I have nothing to base that on at this time, so I’ll just keep looking.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:52 am
#8 where are the charges?
May 16th, 2008 at 8:56 am
#12 Forthcoming.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:56 am
#7-
Cluster Court, the CPS Associate Judges who handle these cases in more established areas.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Arrest first, charge later?
May 16th, 2008 at 8:58 am
Now children, we must remember that in Texas it’s the seriousness of the charge and not the facts of the case that rule the day.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Has anyone been arrested?
May 16th, 2008 at 9:03 am
No, you are correct. They simply being held in “protective custody” until they birth children that the state can grab. My bad.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:04 am
But….if they haven’t been arrested or charged, why are they “child-abusing polygamists”?
May 16th, 2008 at 9:08 am
BTW, I had a more thoughtful response in the other thread.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Btw, isn’t that the normal sequence of events? An arrest is made then charges are filed?
I’m assuming that you don’t dispute that FLDS are practicing polygamists. Given that fact, I must also assume that you are not convinced they are child abusers. Is that a fair assessment?
May 16th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Like I said, the FLDS doctrine supporting polygamy is indisputable. It is also indisputable that some, presumably a minority but unknown as fact, FLDS practice monogamy.
I am absolutely not convinced that all FLDS members are child abusers. In fact, I am convinced that not all are.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:19 am
As to the arrests, yes, your sequence is correct but typically there is something to base the arrests upon besides hearsay of an anonymous phone call.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:29 am
#22
Are you convinced that any of the FLDS members are child abusers?
May 16th, 2008 at 9:31 am
trl3,
LOL, most certainly some of the FLDS members are child abusers. Convicted ones at that.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:35 am
I’m sure that not all FLDS members practice polygamy. They are, however, members of a secretive, separatist, polygamous sect with a history of child abuse. Their leader was convicted. If I lived in a desert compound full of people manufacturing meth it seems to me perfectly reasonable for authorities to suspect me of involvement even though I may not be a meth manufacturer myself.
Due to the large number of children involved and the uncooperative, secretive, and downright misleading behavior of the FLDS members, it has been impossible to sort out the facts of this case in a timely manner. That is indeed unfortunate, but I see no nefarious motive on the part of the government to deprive these people of their right to due process. Much of the delays could have been avoided had they been more forthcoming.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:39 am
How much more forthcoming could the couple that I posted about have been? They presented official id’s at the time of the raid. They even presented their EMT licenses issued by the state. The mother and children were still stripped away from their home and subsequently stripped away from each other.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:40 am
The FLDS members have broken established law and so should be charged. So far, though, as it has been mentioned here, no one’s been charged and yet absolute assumptionas are being mad and have been made as to the evil of these members.
I’m not worried about the cost, Republicans, afterall, control all three branches of state government in Texas. What can go wrong? It’s not like Republican unjustly prosecuted Ramos and Compean or anything of the sort.
(Please note sarcasm)
May 16th, 2008 at 9:43 am
#26;
Nor would I be frtcoming if I saw law enforcement take every child I ever knew. thisi s a big reason why the state should have focused on individuals where there was visible evidence of abuse, NOT the entire compound. I’m conviced the state would get much more cooperation in that manner than by taking everyone in sight. That, I can imagine would create a “‘we’re under attack” mentality and thus cause people to resist in helping the government.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:44 am
BigJolly #25
Which is exactly why there has to be a complete investigation. That is also why ALL of the children had to be protected while this is sorted out. It may suck but I think it is necessary.
We always bad mouth CPS for failing to act when a child is hurt or killed when there was previous indications of child abuse. Now they have acted to protect children believed to be at risk and we bad mouth them for that.
I wish there was a better way, but an extended investigation inside a secretive society while abuse is occurring just does not cut it.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:49 am
#27 - I think they are suffering because their fellow sect members thwarted the agency’s every attempt to sort this out by giving false names, refusing to show identification, constantly changing their ages when asked. Complaining about due process while continually throwing up roadblocks to slow the process down is like the man convicted of murdering his parents pleading for mercy on account of he’s an orphan.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:51 am
#30 trl3,
But those convictions were not in Texas. A complete investigation might indeed have been warranted. There were four years in between the time they moved here and the time of the, as it turns out, bogus phone call. Should have been ample time for an investigation to occur, wouldn’t you think?
The argument that CPS is sometimes placed between a rock and a hard place is valid. As is the argument that they sometimes receive unwarranted criticism. Which is probably the underlying reason that they tend to overstep their bounds and use heavy handed tactics.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Is your basic argument that group dynamics outweigh individual rights?
May 16th, 2008 at 9:52 am
trl3;
And they should be criticized. And let me add to that. Now that the state has undertaken the task of getting DNA from all 700 or so members of the compound and now need to do that in 2 moths (I think that ends next week), how many cases which a known rape *has* ocurred (tearing, blood and a person the victim *has* said who did it, which has yet to happen here) and DNA is needed to link the culprit to that crime is going to the backburner so that the state can get all these DNA samples in time? Just curious. Even if the state of Texas is ordering all the states’ DNA labs to work exclusively on the YTZ case, I still can’t imagine how it’s going to be complete in 2 months.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:56 am
#33 Not at all. But group dynamics certainly should carry some weight.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:09 am
BigJolly #32
I will agree that the situation sucks. I also hope that the investigation proceeds as judiciously as possible, However having some experience in the investigation field I am not encouraged.
#34 Darren
Was there a point in the midst of the rant? If there was any point besides anger I apparently missed it.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:21 am
The convictions were not in Texas but it is a stretch to think that by moving to a new compound in Eldorado the group miraculously reformed and so longer practiced illegal behavior; behavior which is THE PRIMARY reason the group even exists. If a registered sex offender moves to another state his previous crimes follow him. I know, I know, not everyone in the group is guilty, but we’re not talking about a group of Boy Scouts relocating.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:22 am
As far as I can tell, after searching and searching, including the registered sex offenders database, there were no registered sex offenders living there.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:38 am
trl #34;
From my understandng there are 8 facilities in Texas that have DNA analysis available. If there were rape, as many are declaring in absolute terms, in the YTZ compound, it will not be the only rape in Texas. Right now, I’m sure, there is, i’m sure currently a rape on file in some deartment of justice somewhere in Texas were the vicim can show physical evidence and has positively identified the perpetrator. DNA is an excellent way to connect the perp. to the crime or to, based on the results of the DNA analysis, show no connection, at least in DNA, between the suspect and victim. Now, the state has over 700 people from which they want to analize DNA. It’s not like this can be done with ease or quickly. Resources now have to be devoted to analize the YTZ compound member’s DNA. That can easily result in prolonging a rape case on file in order to get this massive DNA testing done.
I previously did some research into the time it takes to analize DNA and retur the results. I found little to no info. on Texas’ labs so I’m basing my conclusions on Boston’s lab. Also, my math may be off but I concluded the state will need 14 months of time to analize the DNA of all 700 compound members.
Point being that on the assumption of there being child abuse in the YTZ compound, cases in the state where there is clear evidence of rape may very well be put on the backburner so that 700 people from the compound can have their DNA analized and thus connect the families.
By taking everybody at once CPS has the huge task of getting the story sorted out. In the meantime there may be cases of rape where hard evidence points to a real rape ocurred may be prolonged, just to do DNA testing on people where I’ve heard only circumstantial evidence of rape.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:47 am
I never cease to be amazed at how many people will accept information at face value if it comes from the state or a newspaper. Should anyone be interested in looking behind the curtain, there is an active group of former FLDS members working overtime to bring this thing down - which maybe it should be - but who are willing to scheme, plot, and perhaps even file false and misleading testimony to achieve their goals. It’s all out there if you are willing to look for it. If you presume that these people are American citizens, do they not at least deserve the same amount of judicial respect and constitutional privileges as illegal aliens?
May 16th, 2008 at 11:05 am
Oh, this is going to cost Texas in many, many ways, with a massive financial hit.
If no charges are brought agaisnt the two sets of parents that were held “in custody” until their children were born, then there are two huge lawsuits right there. And the State of Texas deserves anything the juries may award against it. Unfortunately, we taxpayers have to absorb the damage done by zealot Statist bureacrats.
Yes, hamous, my friend, arrests usually do come before formal charges. But, as you well know, a person is entitled to know what he is being charged with at the time of his arrest. That’s another pesky detail Constitutional detail that I guess isn’t important as long as the Statists chant “for the children.”
Now, where is that guy who said all the contributors think the same way?
May 16th, 2008 at 11:07 am
The largest government action of its kind in US history. To me, that alone would make any fair minded person want to ensure the State’s actions are closely scrutinized.
I, too, used to believe anything the government told me. After all, there here to protect me, right?
I guess I’ve become a skeptic, albeit a sensitive one.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:20 am
RickG;
I was young and ignorant too once. I think we all go through that.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
You must file charges within 48 hours or turn them loose, unless a judge allows a longer period.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:55 am
I have already spoken with my state rep and senator. I think enough injustice has gone on now long enough and we need more unbiased hands in the pot.
I figure at least with more eyes on the case, more information will leak out.
The case BigJ posted on just burns me up. Holding people with IDs from the STATE and trying to take their child. THAT is abuse of power, I don’t care how obstructive other members might have been.
I find it interesting the people that support the state want to clump these people together for everything.
SOME have molested children “THEIR ALL GUILTY”
SOME have been held against their will and had legal state documents to prove their age. “THEY ARE FRIENDS WITH THE MOLESTERS THEY ARE ALL GUILTY”
Then they (State defenders) will immediately tell you let the states judicial process run its course, they will each get their own trial and the perfection of the state will work things out.
Right, like I believe that when the state is just like you defenders on this board. They are all together so they are all guilty, therefore we can hold anyone we want as long as we want and take their kids.
May 16th, 2008 at 11:58 am
So is this what it comes down to? If I don’t believe the government is lying to me in this case that means I believe anything the government tells me? C’mon guys.
I’d be willing to bet that if anyone has been arrested in this case then the requirements in #44 have been met. In the case of removing children from a home where they are suspected of being abused, I don’t think #44 even applies.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
In the mean time, Darren’s calculations are 14 months for DNA to be completed. I suppose that means the state will hold some of these kids as long as 14 months. Some children won’t even remember their parents.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
#47;
And the calculation may be wrong. My math may be wrong and based what Texas can do according to what i read Boston can do (I found nothing on Texas’ ability to analize DNA). Here’s what I originally posted in # 15.
http://lonestartimes.com/2008/05/14/family-torn-apart-gets-small-victory/#comments
May 16th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Darren10
You calculate it will take 14 months to run 700 DNA test. You say that there are only 8 labs in Texas that can run a DNA test.
Now out of 8 labs you are claiming that they can only average 1.65 test per day?
If each Lab ran only 2 extra test per day (16 test per day total) it would take less than 45 days to comlete the testing.
There is also no prohibition against going outside the state for the test.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Of course, if the polygamists had been forthcoming during the initial investigation this could have all been cleared up much quicker. What does luv2hammer do when he pulls someone over and that person refuses to provide proper identification and gives him several different names and ages?
May 16th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
50. hamous
Take his children away from him?
May 16th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
46. hamous
And that’s part of the problem I have, hamous. Actions are being taken based on the “suspicions” of people who have now repeatedly been proven wrong. How long do we justify conduct on the basis of the suspicions of such bad suspecters?
May 16th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
#51 I’d bet he doesn’t tell him to have a nice day and send him on his merry way.
I have problems with it too, Rick. But deliberately misleading investigators sure makes you look like you have something to hide.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
#50
I bet if he/she is illegal thats exactly what he does.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Oops 54 was answer to 53 sorry
May 16th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
You guys are killin me!
May 16th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
53. hamous
Of course, you are right about this. But the Amish are also reticent with the “English” (us). Now, whether all of the conduct of these FLDS people was due to fear and suspicion of the English or criminal conspiracy remains to be seen.
But I think BigJolly points out that not all of the folks were uncooperative and still lumped in with the rest. And even when CPS knew certain parents were, in fact, adults (contrary to CPS’ suspcions) they still acted with the heavy hand and had to be corrected by judges.
Wait a minute, we’ve had this argument before. Sorry to repeat myself.
Wanna talk about Jews?
May 16th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Speaking of the Amish, my last interaction with them was in Sept, back home. They were selling pies, breads, jams and jellies at Moonshine. They never smiled. They did not engage. They wore the typical dress from the 1800’s. There was a mother, son and daughter. Daughter was probably 14, son 12. They had their picnic table set away from us. THeir goal is to make enough money to build their one room school….. and by now I bet it’s built. They moved from up by Champaigne when their land was purchased for big bucks to put in a speedway.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
I’ve agreed on that matter. So it looks like “the system” worked, right?
May 16th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
My point is ……. they aren’t different from the compound people, except for the sexual abuse allegations.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
I don’t think the Amish are a polygamist cult.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
I wonder if there are polygamist Jewish cults?
May 16th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
One point on “the system worked”. These women are still in captivity. Unless they want to leave their children, that is.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Muslims take multiple wives. I wonder how that is going to fly here in the USA. Will they be allowed, or do they live a poly life style now?
May 16th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Aren’t all the child abuse, rapists men from the compound free to roam around Texas and rape, pillage?
May 16th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
59.
Not the CPS system. They’re the ones to mucked it up. The judicial system is working, but it’s sad folks have to go through CPS excesses in the first place.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
62.
Dunno. Ask Mrs. Benzion. No, not that one, the other one.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
64. AW
Interesting questions. They are already hinting/suggesting/demanding a separate judicial system for Muslims. And if they can’t practice their religion the way they want to, without submitting to our laws, you know there will be hell to pay from the liberal “diversity” lobby.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
#64 - That’s immaterial to the case, just as is bringing pregnant 3rd ward teenagers into the discussion.
#66 No one said it was pretty, but there are mechanisms in place to exact justice. But I don’t need to tell you that. If reform needs to take place in CPS in the form of lawsuits and/or administrative code changes then lets do it. We’ll be a better state when this is all sorted out.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Hamous we agree! ( don’t fall off your chair)
If reform needs to take place in CPS in the form of lawsuits and/or administrative code changes then lets do it. We’ll be a better state when this is all sorted out.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Geez Louise - this is from the habeas corpus petition filed by the parents of five of the children. I downloaded it here and ran it through OCR.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
This is outrageous.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Marreta was born September 17, 2006. She is almost 18 months old.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
This is terrifying. This isn’t America is it? This must be Russia or China. I cannot imagine the fear when the state of Texas arrived.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
BigJ, What is the gain for doing this to these people? I realize the compound is now a viable piece of real estate. I knows there are those who have left this belief and want to destroy them, but why would Texas handle this, this way? Luv2 said in the beginning, this group was getting so powerful, the county was afraid they would take over the county, politically. Is that why we have done this to these people?
May 16th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I think I saw this movie. Crying cops. Sacred sites. The Green Mile! Certainly tugs at the ol’ heartstrings. Were the “sacred sites” they were protecting the beds where they consummated their multiple marriages?
May 16th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
May 16th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I think I won’t respond to that Mark.
May 16th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
May 16th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Really. Why is nobody concerned about the way these children are treated by their own parents? Motherly affection is forbidden. The children do not form bonds with their own mothers and are passed around to all the other wives like wild dogs. The kids are targeted if their “mother” dares to not submit to sex. They are forbidden to show emotion. When girls reach puberty they become fresh meat for “the elders” or forced to marry cousins. To reduce competition the adolescent boys are exiled. Where is the concern for how these kids have been treated all their lives?
May 16th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Most of what you just typed is hogwash. Have you read the reports from the workers that actually worked with them? Dude, you are believing newspaper accounts.
I’m quoting from court documents.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Hamous how could the mental health workers who were with these children say they were healthy and happy if they got no affection from their moms? And Hamous, if it’s so horrid, why did the author of Escapes daughter return to the group when she was 18 and old enough to? Do you think maybe her mom wasn’t as good as the lifestyle she had as a child?
May 16th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Look at the picture of that family that I posted and tell me that those kids have not formed bonds with their parents. Unreal.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
76.
just plain silly. The facts alleged in the petition, though, aren’t that funny.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
#81 No, its not hogwash. The information is first person accounts from women who lived this nightmare and managed to escape.
By saying you’re quoting from court documents you’re implying the quotes have some sort of higher standing in truth or seal of approval. Those are simply the words of the cultists themselves. Of course they will be embellished with heart-tugging language, as they should be. But don’t hold them up as if they were the Ten Commandments found in the Lost Ark of the Covenant.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Isn’t it possible that I can care for both sides? Just possible?
May 16th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
And you don’t think that the comments of those that “escaped” are “embellished with heart-tugging language”?
May 16th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
#84 - It was meant to be silly…and elicit cries of righteous indignation. I’m pretty transparent.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
85.
I thought Indiana Jones already found that.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I will no longer feed the trolls.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Hard to feed them when you have nothing to offer.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
#86 - Of course it is possible, and IMO most likely. I just don’t hear it being stated.
#87 - Absolutely. Note I also said “Of course they will be embellished with heart-tugging language, as they should be.”
May 16th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Nope. That was a fake one planted by the Elders of Zion. They’ve been keeping the real one in an asylum in Japan next to where they keep the cryogenically frozen bodies of Elvis and Bruce Lee.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Is that “embellished with heart-tugging language”? It also corresponds with news accounts of the original hearing.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
How can I state it? I’ve already said a thousand times over that if there are crimes, prosecute them.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
#95 You do seem to have trouble believing the accounts given by women who have
escapedvoluntarily left thecultreligious compound but have no such reservations believing the ones still there.May 16th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
I believe both. I don’t believe either is 100% representative of the truth.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I give more weight to court documents, including those from the trial in Arizona, then I do biographies, newspaper accounts or websites set up for either side.
May 16th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
#97, #98 That’s reasonable. While the petition you linked is I guess technically considered “court documents” I don’t think it is any different than the biographies of those whom have left. Both are written from an extremely emotional point of view.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Perhaps parts of the petition are emotional but the bulk of it is not. It is certainly a narrative designed to sway the court but most of it is recapping the first hearing. It must have been utter chaos in there and I cannot believe that life changing decisions were made like that.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
#50 hamous
First of all if I pull someone over it’s because I have seen them break a law, not because I suspect they might have broken a law. There could also be a cause to pull them over should the vehicle or occupants fit the description of a wanted vehicle or persons driving such a vehicle. If they give me several names and dates of birth then I will arrest and take them to be AFISed and identified. I will have had them write their name and date of birth down so if they lied because they are wanted I can charge them.
If it is during a warrant search the same would happen. So far I have not seen a valid reason for the warrant issued and the limit was the 16 year old girl, which was not found and later proven to be a fraud. A Texas Ranger saying a female was underage and pregnant might qualify him for a carnival sideshow but hardly as a viable authority to execute an arrest.
To effectively arrest over 400 people and kidnap their children on a unsubstantiated accusation my in and of itself be criminal. Had I been ordered to take part in this I would have called in sick.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Court documents covering the grand jury testimony of Candi Shapley, forced to marry at the age of 16 to a 28 year old man already married with four children:
http://www.courttv.com/news/hildale/grandjury_testimony.html
May 16th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Um, yeah. Ok.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
102. hamous
Oops. Sendas prematuras.
For clarity sake, the testimony you cite was from the Arizona proceedings and did not relate to the Texas compound, correct? Specifically, the allegations she is making were of things that occurred at a different FLDS community than the one we are specifically discussing?
May 16th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
#104 You are correct. Same sect led by Warren Jeffs but she did not live in the YFZ compound that I’m aware of.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Unfortunately each and every part of the state’s argument seems to be unraveling. Some are hanging their hat on the idea that the FLDS were uncooperative and lying about everything, yet when documents were produced such as drivers license, birth certificates, and even an EMT card issued by the state, CPS just ignored those documents (or said they were fakes) and just said they were lying anyway.
In her testimony, CPS worker Voss expressed a lot of fear due to the fact that there were men around. She admitted under cross that she consulted with a known FLDS hater as her expert to understand how FLDS works and testified under oath the things she had been told as if she had that knowledge on her own (in other words as if it were not hearsay but was her own work). Of course, a female sympathetic judge just ate that stuff up and even help prepare the questions for the state attorneys while telling the defense attorneys that there was no need to raise constitutional issues - they just did not apply.
This really acted out like something you would see on Lifetime (aka “The Sick Womens Channel”). It is really pathetic, and while justice may someday prevail, the emotional harm piled on these children will never go away.
And we thought Kalifornia was bad.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
#102 hamous
What did that have to do with Eldorado?
May 16th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
#107 If you look at #80, #81, #85, #98 we were discussing the conditions in which FLDS children are raised, which I think is abhorrent. Most of the people now seemingly so concerned about the welfare of the children didn’t give a rat’s ass about their treatment at the hands of their own families. I gave some eyewitness accounts of former members and was chastised for not using “official” documents. I then went and got some of them “official” documents and presented them as evidence of child abuse. The Eldorado cult is part of the same organization as the Hilldale group, both were headed by Jeffs. I hope no one is suggesting that they miraculously changed their ways when they crossed the Texas border.
May 16th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Hamous, Betty returned to the group at the age of 18 because she wanted to. Her mother wrote the book, “escape” and is one you quote. Well, her own daughter chose to go back. Doesn’t that tell you there might be some truth to the kids being ok?
May 16th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Nope.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
#110 hamous
You might be wrong,but you are never in doubt.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Hamous - Thank you for having some common sense.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
hamous
It doesn’t mean diddly squat what someone other than the folks in Eldordo did. This is some seroius injustice. First we have the Duke LaCross team, then Ramos and Compean and now this.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
#71 - That’s an awsome piece of legal work.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
#112 LizBV
Since you are a substance abuse counselor does all this mean these guys are SEX ADDICTS, because they are crazy about the stuff.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
#115 No.
May 16th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
#115 Rape and sexual child molestation has very little to do with sex. It’s more about power and control.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
108. hamous
Guilt by association is not a recognized legal doctrine, even if you are the member of a “cult.” Thank God the law still requires proof of individual guilt.
Unless you work for CPS. (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
May 16th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
#102 Hamous,
And like I said, I give more weight to that than I do newspaper accounts.
Was Mr. Jeffs convicted? Yes, he was.
It’s awesome that you are the only one with common sense. Congrats, man.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
I don’t mind that the state is gong to be sued to infinity over this, because that alone will stop other states from repeating this travesty. In the mean time, pray for the kids, and their families.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
AW, my thoughts exactly. I hope all of my property taxes go straight to these people and their attorneys.
And I promise you this: I’ll never, ever, in a million years vote for Rick Perry again.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
What is really interesting is all this talk of dirty old men having sex with little girls and thus far, even with the court documents link that The Only One With Common Sense has provided, the maximum difference has been…..twelve years and that was between a 28 year old man and a 16 year old that would have been of legal age even after the law was passed that targeted these “dirty old men having sex with little girls”.
Yes, indeed, I’d call that interesting. ‘course, I ain’t got no common sense anyways!
May 16th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Gotta do this so it doesn’t get lost in the shuffle: TOOWCS™.
May 16th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
And another one just for me and my use: TPLC™.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
One of these days
One of these nights
You’ll take off your hat
And they’ll read you your rights
You’ll wanna get high
Every time you feel low
Hey, Queen Isabella
Stay away from that fella
He’ll just get you into trouble, you know?
But they came here by boat
And they came here by plane
They blistered their hands
And they burned out their brain
All dreaming a dream
That’ll never come true
Hey, don’t give me no trouble
Or I’ll call up my double
We’ll play piggy-in-the-middle with you
You’ll get mesmerized by alibis
And limbo dance in pairs
Please lock that door
It don’t make much sense
That common sense
Don’t make no sense no more
May 16th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Hey C.S. man umm
Yeah since you don’t wanna gimme a dollar for no beer umm
why don’t you gimme a lyrical shoutout on your album junior?
C’mon man gimme somethin man!
Common! Ah heh!
May 16th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
#122 BigJolly - This is the only issue you and I have ever really butted heads on (which is amazing).
It ain’t personal!
May 16th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Perhaps it is this communist/socialist aspect of the religion that appeals to its’ supporters, but it looks like the Texas raid is generating interest with respect to previous lawsuits where parties are trying to collect the assets of those deemed responsible for damages in the FLDS.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700226417,00.html
“In 2005, a judge took control of the UEP Trust, freezing its assets after allegations by state authorities that FLDS leader Warren Jeffs and other trustees had mismanaged it. The trust, with an estimated $110 million in assets, controls homes, businesses and properties within the FLDS enclaves of Hildale, Utah; Colorado City, Ariz.; and Bountiful, B.C., Canada.”
“The UEP is based on the early LDS concept of a “united order,” in which everything is given to the church and it is doled out to members according to wants and needs.”
May 16th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Yup, take their assets. The church’s assets that is.
The individuals are going to own the state of Texas soon enough.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Aha so it is assets motivated. Well a crummy 70,000 dollars worth of land is now millions.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Blackmore was at one time a close associate of Jeffs, and a high level priest in the church. He actually admitted to marrying two underage girls on Larry King Live awhile back. I’m sure we can trust that he did not have sex with them…….
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-11-10/news/wanted-armed-and-dangerous/
“Warren thinks he’s Jesus. The people think he’s Jesus,” says Winston Blackmore, who was bishop of the FLDS community in Bountiful, British Columbia, until Jeffs excommunicated him from the church in 2002.”
May 16th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
#129 - Have you read the history of the UEP trust?
May 16th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
He also thinks he’s Moses:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2626434/Warren-Jeffs-Transcripts-Tape-13-FLDS
May 16th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Nobody should care what Warren thinks. Nobody should care about what’s going on in Utah and Arizona. We should care about the way American citizens are being treated by the formerly great State of Texas. I’ve been waiting since day one of this deal to see one piece of hard evidence supporting any of the allegations made by the State. A few of the former members are trying to sell a few books, appear on Oprah, cash in on bringing down FLDS, and may have other motives as well. If they can con the people of Texas to go along with their grift, then more power to them. If on the other hand there is no evidence to support their claims, then hang on to your pocketbook.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
There is the Dali Lama, there is budha, Mohammed, the Hari Krishna guy,L.Ron Hubbard, Mary Baker Eddy, on and on. There is freedom of religion.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Bottom line: You can pray to a tree or doorknob. You can swing a chicken over your head while chanting, “KFC is our Lord and God.” You can do almost any damn thing you please.
But in the great state of Texas, you CAN’T molest little girls and impregnate them because of your so called, “freedom of religion.”
May 16th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
#134 Funny how y’all are quick to dismiss the stories of those who left this cult as money-grubbing grifters but readily accept the current members stories as gospel.
#135 Wait a minute. I thought this WASN’T about freedom of religion. Which is it? Makes no difference to me. Either way, polygamy is still illegal.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
aw # 109;
I listened to that author on Dan patrick’s show and she clearly had an extremely opressive husband. The doctrines of God teaches man were never given to opress others, which is what he did constantly. The fact that the daughter returned does indicate that not all of the men there were like that.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Then explain to me why many women return to their abusive husbands time after time.
That story doesn’t prove a damn thing.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
#139 When oppression and abuse is all you know, it becomes the “norm” and is easier to handle than the fear of the unknown.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
#139 women return because they fear making it own their own, and because they have been taught by the man how worthless they are. Now this girl was outside living with her mom. She wasn’t married. She wasn’t raped. She was living the teen life. She chose to return. She did so, because her belief is, it’s the proper life. That’s her choice.
May 16th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
I find it hilarious, how we condemn these people when our culture is so corrupt.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
#134 Rastus
A preponderance of past evidence and patterns of behavior of an individual or group actually carry significant weight in legal proceedings. Your fantasy they don’t is irrelevant. The FLDS is an identifiable and quantifiable organization whose behavior in the past, in other jurisdictions, has everything to do with decisions made in the state of Texas.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Imagine having the floor dropped out from under your feet and you are left hanging in state of limbo. It’s terrifying and it takes some time for you to become strong enough to decide where you want your feet to solidly land.
Women who return to abusive relationships bolt back to what is familiar before they become strong enough to decide what is best for themselves and their children. It’s sad, but it is easier for them at that point in time.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
#142 AW
No one here is condemning anything but the predatory sexual practices of the men in this cult. As far as condemning America as utterly corrupt, perhaps you should apply to be a speechwriter for Michelle Obama. The United States of America is the least corrupt nation on earth and to insinuate we do not have the moral authority to prevent the abuse of young, underage girls as sexual, breeding stock for a crowd of sick, old bastards is really absurd.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Texpat, I don’t hate America, and it’s not right for you to imply I believe as Michelle Obama. I know this is a land of opportunity. It is my understanding this group does not have pornography,( child or adult), sexual gender confusion( transgender, homosexuality), drug abuse( alcohol or other), or murder. That is what I mean by our culture, compared to theirs. This group does not have MTV, the Osbornes, Brittaney Spears, Paris Hilton, etc, etc.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
I am waiting for an arrest Texpat. It’s not clear to me why these dangerous, raping men are allowed to be free? It seems we Texas women are in danger.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Trl3 # 49;
Yes, my math was off…from my original post. According to what I found, the Boston forensics lab that is capable to analize DNA in 2004 could conduct 300 DNA analysis per year. That’s 25/mo. Multiply that by 8 and you get 200 tests done per month. So according to that it should take a aroximately 3 1/2 months to complete all the DNA tests. So the state can keep people for 3 1/2 months witout knowing the facts behind keeping them. That’s scary.
Now, my original reason to post that idea above in #39 was that these calculations are conclusions (assuming the capacity to conduct DNA analisys is accurate) based upon the idea that this is *all* the testing these labs do in 3 1/2 months. In other words, other rape cases, perhaps ones where there are clear physical signs of rape ocurred would be put off just to do these tests the state of Texas brought upon themselves to do. And, yes, you can contract out of state. In fact, I think that’s what the Houston lab still does due to their shut down a few years ago for horrifically contanminating DNA samples and falsifying their findings in order to math the police theory of a crime. But even by out sourcing the DNA samples here to other states to be analized, that could put off other cases in those states as well. Cases that are based upon solid evidence of a crime being committed. As for the YTZ compound, it’s all circumstancial.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
hamous #139;
Tis why I said the damn word “indicates” not the damn word “proves”.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Funny, that is exactly how many of the girls that left describe how the FLDS perverts treated them:
But you guys are probably right. They’re all just money-grubbing grifters.
http://www.childbrides.org/
May 16th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
I want proof of the predatory sexual practices of these men. ( hearing crickets chirping)
May 16th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
#s 140, 141, 144;
Very valid points.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
#150 ;
Yes, it’s very ironic and does not make solid sense. On the one hand you have a reason to leave whereas on the other, you use the same reason to return.
It’s like peple I’ve known who suffer depression. Logically you could wonder why factor X depresses them; ecause for the life of you, you can’t figure out why it does. But I’ve concluded in life that you don’t hae to “know” why factor X causes depression, just accept that it does fr that person. Then you can make strides to overcome it. So we don’t have to know why w woman returns to an abusive relationship in order to help it better. We just have to accept that they do in order to do some god about it.
That’s my view.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
#146 AW
And they don’t have these things or people in North Korea or Iran or Saudi Arabia. To say their very existence in a free and open society indicts the entire culture and all of its participants is dangerous and dishonest. Putting up with some sordid and unsavory morons is a small price to pay for liberty and freedom.
I made the comments I did to point out to you how silly you sounded in your statements. I try to caution people here to stop and think about what they are going to write before they hit the keyboard.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Mike S says:
Don’t need to because ripping Down’s syndrome kids away from their parents doesn’t have a damn thing to do with your fantasies.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
LizBV says,
But apparently, you can lie, distort and manipulate the truth so that people actually believe that those things happened.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
TOOWCS™ says,
Yeah. So, um, well, um, you know, where are the, um, charges?
/mr stupido, no common sensio
May 16th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
textpat #145;
Once again an absolute accusation. Sex predators *are* there. they *are* raping young women.
Who, when, how, why, and where? Still these questions cannot be answered despite the appearance of people who know for an absolute fact that they are happening or have happened in this compound.
american woman # 142;
I’m with you totally!!!
People are so quick to condemn the YTZ compound for fomenting child rape and yet our society’s open acceptance of sex leads to the same end. I spoke to a lady at work whose husband is the top computer sex offender tracker for the police department he serves under. And she says MySpace is an abolute heaven for sex predators. and yet how many parents don’t even bother to check if their child is posting sexy quotes or sexy pictures of themselves? How many parents know it and yet do nothing. “It’s their life”. Arghhh.
Like homosexual marriage, you will not find *any* tolerance in the Bible for oen sexuality. In fact, you can track robably any one the destuctions of Israel back to when sexuality outside the bonds of marriage (to be practiced *only* within marriage)was openly accepted.
The way I see it, the only way a practice such as homosexual marriage is accepted by society in general is by first accepting the previously mentioned sexual practices to begin with. despite what some may think. you cannot control sex. it can and will control you and society at large when people forget the words of God and allow what He has said NOT to do to be done.
Please don’t shut down the blog again. In fact, these are my words and for any furter discussion of it I’ll be glad to do it in anther blog or forum.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
TOOWCS™ says,
Um…neither has the “great state of Texas”.
/just sayin’
May 16th, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Thanks to the Lawyers for the help with these people. Don’t blow it by getting paid. PRO BONO should be the watch word. Especially since LAWYERS as a WHOLE cost us Millions in Taxes, insurance and product costs. ( I am speaking of Excessive payouts)
May 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Decider of All Common Sense (DACS™) says,
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Is that you third from left?
http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/L/0/3/SalemWitchTrial-e.jpg
May 16th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
#157;
I didn’t now you soke Spanish BigJolly. ¡Muy bien!
May 16th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Oh. After reading #144, perhaps this is what DACS™ has in mind.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/SAL_HANG.JPG
May 16th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Heck, as long as we are going to keep spouting propaganda, why not try some from the other side? Fair, no?
Why is that true? Because someone said it! You know, like childbrides or something!
May 16th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I believe that is what the Great State of Texas is attempting to find out.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
The Great State of Texas isn’t attempting to find anything out. They have decided what is truth and that is that.
‘course, I ain’t got no common sense though!
May 16th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Nope. Its not true until its filed as a habeas corpus petition
May 16th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
#156 Well, all we know for certain now is 30 out of 50 something minors within child bearing years have been pregnant or are pregnant now. Don’t you find that the least little bit disturbing?
Add that to the well KNOWN and documented preachings of Jeffs, and yes there is cause for concern and an investigation.
I will be the first to admit our government on ALL levels screws up A LOT. Their fault in this scenario was allowing it to continue for as long as it did. However, in this case the authorities took action as they should - finally.
Let’s wait and see what the DNA results are, shall we? (And WHY are we or they having to go through this ordeal in the first place if they have nothing to hide? They could have cleared this up quickly otherwise.)
It’s just another case of “whodababydaddy?” X’s Lord knows how many and how young or who was Mommy?
Since the kids were being raised by a “village” and not a set of parents it’s a tad bit difficult to determine.
Oh wait, it takes a village to raise a child, remember? You cool with that now too?
May 16th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
pimlico says,
BS. Bill for every frickin’ penny you spend, then turn around and sue the idiots that we put into office that allowed this travesty to happen.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
#165;
EXACTLY. And until we find out, in other words, until we know, I would like for people to stop speaking as if they know. Even if something bad or wrong did apen (a chid raped), all people, nless its the IRS involved, are innocent until proven guilty. Please act as much.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
DACS™ says,
Laughable. You’re gonna have to keep up if you want to play and tell people they’re stupid.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
LizBV # 168;
May 16th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
DACS™ says,
Oh. Well then. Would that be the same as you guy’s spiritual mentor preaching that America needs to be blown to pieces?
There is cause for concern and investigation, TOOWCS™! Mount your horses!
May 16th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
DACS™ says,
Especially if someone mentions GWB, no?
May 16th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
May 16th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
DACS™ says,
No, we shan’t. DNA has nothing to do with ripping innocent people from their families, throwing them into group homes, subjecting them to all sorts of diseases, feeding them food that you know will make them sick, denying them attorneys, taking their cell phones from them, lying to them, manipulating them, etc.
The only DNA we need to take is from people that support this to see if they are actually human.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
#174 GWB has nothing to do with this. Dont pull that stunt - you’re bigger than that.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I have no idea what DACS™ is saying in seven paragraphs of unsourced blockquotes.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
I give up. Smooch on the cheek and g’night.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Aw, why give up DACS™? I thought it wasn’t personal.
May 16th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
On fldstruth.org they show Warren Jeffs alongside other important leaders of the church (and of course Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon religion). But they say nothing about him.
http://www.fldstruth.org/administration.php?index=9
He is also shown on the FBI website. But they do say something about him there.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/cac/jeffs_ws.htm
This is not a fantasy. And neither is the fact that the mothers and fathers i