Everything is bigger in Texas. So it should surprise no one that state officials and CPS have royally bungled the largest taking of children in the country’s history. It is shocking to see the disregard for civil rights displayed all around.
So called “individual” hearings started yesterday and they are anything but “individual”. Boilerplate templates, vague requirements, judges asking rather than telling CPS what to do and general chaos define these “individual” hearings.
The state has officially dropped the bogus case that started it all.
But on Monday, a Child Protective Services attorney asked for the case involving a 16-year-old known as “Sarah,” who claimed sexual and physical abuse at the hands of her husband, to be dropped.
Not exactly a surprise to anyone that has followed this story in even a cursory manner. The evidence is clear that prior to the actual raid, the Texas Rangers knew that at least half of the story related in the bogus phone call was false.
But that is done and lawsuits will be forthcoming. Meanwhile, CPS continues to harm innocent women and children six and a half weeks later. Browsing through the articles written about the initial hearings yesterday brings little hope that this will change.
It seems as though the judges are going to allow CPS to do whatever they choose:
The five state district judges hearing the cases uniformly approved and signed the more than 40 proposed service plans, which set goals for parents that included psychiatric testing, parental training and counseling, overruling objections that the documents were essentially vaguely worded boilerplate that did not address each family’s specific situation.
That left FLDS representatives infuriated after the hearings. Spokesman Rod Parker lashed out with his strongest denunciation yet of CPS’ actions in the case.
More “children” have been “reclassified” as adults.
The state acknowledged Monday that two more sect members it listed as minors were actually adults, a mistake it has made at least four times.
And throw out the requirement that children seized should be put in a location close enough to the parent to allow visitation.
Ms. Jeffs has two children in foster care in Amarillo, up in the Panhandle; one in Gonzales in south-central Texas; two in San Antonio, in Central Texas; and three in Waco, halfway between Dallas and Austin, a lawyer for Ms. Jeffs said. The closest are about 150 miles from her home in Eldorado, and the farthest are more than nine hours apart by car.
Wanna be a stay at home mom? Forget about it. CPS is going to require all mothers to be tested for vocational ability and make certain that they can support their child.
As part of the plan, the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services wants to assess not only the educational ability of the boy but that of his mother as well. It wants Barlow to submit to a variety of tests to determine her vocational interests.
And don’t think that these hearings are going to result in more visitation time.
Brenda Jessop, 37, appeared at a hearing for her sons Isaac and Raymond. She was seeking more visitation time with the boys, sons of Warren Jeffs, who are staying at Cal Farley Boys Ranch in Amarillo but have been separated there.
The judge declined more visitation time for Jessop.
Prior to preparing the “individual” plans for the “individual” hearings, wouldn’t you think that a CPS worker would need to meet with the “individuals” in question?
On Monday, most caseworkers said they had not met with the women until arriving at court. Mixed-up names and case reports slowed some hearings; others were held up because attorneys had cases in different courtrooms.
And since this case presumably has nothing to do with religion, why were copies of the Book of Mormon taken away?
Steve Pickell, an attorney ad litem for Isaac, asked why one of the boys’ Book of Mormon had been taken away and not returned - a problem voiced in other hearings as well.
Judge Marilyn Aboussie said the state does not intend to interfere with the children’s religious texts.
“I would like to hear if there was a good reason for that. I can’t think of one,” she said. “We would need an excellent reason for that.”
Outside court, CPS spokeswoman Bit Whitaker said the FLDS children’s copies of the Book of Mormon had photos and quotes of Warren Jeffs taped into them. Workers had to remove them, Whitaker said, as Warren Jeffs is a convicted sex offender despite the fact he is the boys’ father.
Interesting that no one answered that question in court, under oath. But, outside court, they said it was because the books had quotes and pictures from Warren Jeffs. It’s been 46 days since these children were captured. How long does it take to remove quotes and pictures from a book?
And when was the last time CPS required a son to remove a picture of his convicted, criminal father from a book?
There is so much more out there. Read it. Thoroughly.
Think it can’t happen to you? Think again.
Filed Under Front Page ·
“CPS–making a child-raping polygamous cult look like the good guys, as only a government bureaucracy can!”
Not to mention the report of one CPS caseworker who said one of the grounds justifying removal of the kids is because they were home-schooled!
Some people certainly did some very bad things there; now hundreds are going to suffer. These are show trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court
Nothing more to say - it’s all covered here.
Knock, knock
Hi! We’re from the Government and we’re here to help!
In 2007, 6405 children were born to mothers aged 10 - 14. This was nationwide, but I am certain that Texas had our share. How many of these families did CPS seperate? How many of the fathers were charged with rape?
I don’t know the answers to this, but I just have this feeling that were this a Medrasa, no raid would have been made.
This is all because this was a “polygamous” compound, they home schooled, and they were religious. This is no Jonestown here.
I just Thank God that BATF didn’t have anything to do with the raid.
Yeah, I’m all over the map with this, but it just infuriates me to see peoples rights trampled on like this.
I do have more to say after all. This is an absolute disgrace to the State of Texas and the Texas Bar. Since the State is the perp in this matter, the Bar should file the complaints in its own defense. Hopefully they will hurry up and get something filed in federal court where they can at least get a fair hearing. Maybe the AG would file kidnapping charges against Governor tRick. I do get the feeling that some of these pro bono lawyers are actually qualified in the family law field, so hopefully something can be done.
Monty Pythons witch episode comes to mind.
I certainly don’t agree with all of it and if that CPS caseworker did say the reason for removing was they were homeschooled than we have some SERIOUS issues here…but let me just say that I am sure things would have been a little easier if people had been forthright about their true ages/names etc. and instructed their children to do the same. I mean whether or not you agree with the raid wouldn’t you say that would make things a little more expedient if they had actually given the right answers? Every time someone comes out and says “oh look this girl was even an adult” I wonder if she even GAVE them her name or if they had to track down some kind of legal document to find out whether the name she gave them was her real one and then verify her age. It’s such a huge twisted mess I am sure it will go down in history but hopefully we will get some CPS reform out of it. I mean I’m not ready to quite just do away with them completely unlike SOME agencies… (*ahem* IRS *ahem*)
#9 - Meglet - the most highly publicized adults as children cases were based purely on CPS saying they looked like they were under 18 even though they presented birth certificates, drivers license, and EMT certificates. CPS position at the time is that they were all lying and the documents were fake. Don’t believe everything CPS says in this case - in fact, I cannot find anything they have said yet that turned out to be completely true and correct. CPS does however know the difference between lying to the press and lying in court - therefore, you will see some differences in their statements from time to time and you need to know where they were standing (sitting) when the statements were made to judge their authenticity.
Whether you agree with it or not, CPS is interested in the rights of the child, not the parents.
They are asking for vocational abilities because CPS is assuming after the charges are brought, many of their fathers will not have custody rights due to abuse.
I think its a mess CPS has made. They have done a lot wrong. But I don’t necessarily disagree with taking away their book of mormon with quotes from convicted felon Jeffs. But I would say they should replace them with an untarnished - scribbled in book of mormon.
I also agree with Meglet. Most of the Zion crowd would not give their real names or ages and refused to cooperate. It just makes for a bad situation all the way around.
Jolly I don’t really see why you think this is going to happen to everyone? Do you think that these folks were not doing anything illegal?
Help me out here…when the compound was raided there were no records of births, marriages or any documentation connecting some of these children with their birth parents. So there is no way to verify the children’s ages, correct? Cooperation, to say the least, was the last these sect members wanted to do. Plus…it seems that all men headed for part unknown, along with some of the “mothers”…correct? Given these facts..why not wait to see how this all plays out before we lean toward the “black helicopter” syndrome.
Given the fact that some of the unaged girls have given birth causes me serious concern with this religious cult.
Indeed. But, by the same token, don’t believe everything a group of polygamists that worship a convicted child abuser say in this case either.
Stories from other states suggest that they have engaged in illegal acts prior to their arrival in Texas. Thus far, there have been no charges brought against anyone for illegal acts in the state of Texas. There could be charges brought in the future if the original warrant is allowed to stand and if they find evidence of illegal activity. It will be a major relief if charges are filed against someone and an even bigger relief if someone is convicted.
I’d hate to think that all of these lives have been disrupted and potentially destroyed if no one is ever charged.
Meglet says
Unfortunately, the facts do not support your theory. Those that did present valid ID’s, including drivers licenses, birth certificates and in one case EMT certificates were also denied their rights and held in captivity until CPS decided to let them go as adults.
If that doesn’t happen, and relatively soon, you whackos will have another convert
I know that emotions run strong on this case, but just for the sake of accuracy, argument, and understanding, and unlike CPS, let’s try to keep the discussion as factual as is possible. There’s enough misinformation going on to make following the case difficult at best. Mr. BJ seems to be right on tract - if charges are filed and arrests are made, then there is something to talk about. So far, the only statements proven (or admitted) to be false are those made by CPS and DPS.
“held in captivity”
ROFL
Meglet says
In the meantime, lives are currently being ruined. These children will be held for at least a year, longer if CPS has their way.
Few people in power have spoken out against this. In fact, I can’t think of anyone in power that has. The only way change is going to come to CPS is if people in position to make change speak up. They haven’t and most likely won’t because they will be branded as child molester lovers, enablers, etc.
Ah, I forgot. The politically correct term is “protective custody”. My bad.
Another reminder, I think most agree that laws have been broken since polygamy is illegal in all 50 states, including Texas, and this IS a polygamist cult. The process of deciphering who is married to whom and which polygamist is married to which women is not something that can easily be determined. DNA testing should go a long way in determining the parentage of the children and will reveal pretty strong evidence of who the polygamists are.
No, that’s the legal term.
The legal term is “kidnapped.”
Where are the charges, then? Let’s see some arrests.
Sorry, cannot agree with this:
until someone is at least charged with something.
DNA results won’t prove a thing regarding polygamy. It will show who fathered what child with what woman, nothing more or less.
You don’t believe there are polygamists in a polygamist cult??? Alrighty then.
Whether I believe it or not doesn’t matter. The state has to prove it and thus far, they haven’t even charged anyone with it.
So since no arrest has been made and no one has been charged in a possible serial rape case in west Houston, no laws have been broken?
#28 - one big difference in the cases - I think you have a valid complaintant in the “possible” (CPD favorite word) serial rape case in west Houston, although it too could be a fraudulent charge I suppose.
Well….in your attempted analogy, you must have a victim, no? Someone that said that (s)he was raped. Right? Further, you said serial, therefore, more than one victim would have said that. So, if that were the case, I would believe that laws were broken.
In the Eldorado raid case, there has been no one claim to have been a victim of polygamy. No one has claimed to have been forced to marry someone. No one has claimed that they were forced to have sex.
So, what information do you have that leads you to believe that laws have been broken?
In a drug case I’m pretty sure no one will claim to be a victim either. Selling drugs is still illegal. Same for prostitution.
Polygamy is illegal. FLDS is a polygamist group. Their very existence is based on the doctrine of polygamy. Laws have been broken.
Okay, let’s say that there is a high likelihood that polygamy laws were broken. Just for grins.
What does that have to do with a raid that was based upon a claim that someone underage was being raped? If someone had called and said that her husband had multiple wives, would the state have raided her home? Highly unlikely.
But back to the point - I said in the post that the raid is history.
What do you think of the way CPS and the courts are treating these people?
From what I have heard these people only had one wife by state law and the rest were spiritual marriages. So technically they did not break any polygamy laws.
Even if they did, it does not warrant taking their children. As more and more information comes out, it looks like this was a huge mistake by the state.
#30
One law that looks to have been broken is statutory rape. If an underage girl gives birth, it is prima facie proof that statutory rape occurred. The question then becomes who the father is.
#33
I wonder if/how the common law marriage in Texas would apply? If the “spiritual marriage” couples presented themselves as man and wife(ves), would the common law marriage apply?
Native American, what if the father was within 3 years of age to the mother?
BigJolly #19;
Come on, it’s not like that’s happened here on LST. It’s not like fat albert and sarge have accused me of advocating leaving children with child molesters (non of which have been identified yet).
#31 hamous
In order to bring charges against a person certain elements of the crime have to be met. The fact that a man fathered children with several females does not satify this. There are people locally that have done that and they were not arrested because they refer to the female as “my baby’s mama”, not MY WIFE.
The key element is that a man or woman have to represent as their legal spouse several people for it to be considered Bigamy.
This whole deal is shakey because of the bogus search warrant. Good Faith will only get you so far. You had people on this blog screaming about all of the pregnant minors. Well where are they?
If you want to see some go sit in front of Key Middle School when it lets out. Where is CPS for these children?
You are right laws have been broken if polygamy has taken place. Now all you have to do is prove it.
BigPolymy… I love ya’ bro, and as reigning LST Hanukkah-King you are automatically beyond criticism… but it strikes me (in my cursory review, not able to follow every argument you’ve made) that you may (emphasize MAY) have a blind spot for the necessary realties involved in investigating abuse against children, especially in a case on so massive a scale.
I’ll concede whatever you want me to in terms of CPS stupidity, government clumsiness, slippery-slope dangers, etc., and I don’t question your motivation in the slightest. (Unlike the motivation of some)
But as a matter of practical reality, how do you propose that agents of government protect the best interests of children in a situation like this? Should this not be the role of government? If the child-rapers are particularly clever and circumspect in their child-rape, is allowing them to continue their child rape just the price we have to pay to maintain our perfect, abstract fidelity to limited government principles?
I’m not (for once) being sarcastic… I’d really like to hear what you think the appropriate role for government in relation to this compound is. (I certainly don’t claim there are clear-cut or easy answers.)
I share so many of your concerns… but your tenor has a a vaguely “ACLU arguing about Guantanamo” feel about it… it almost seems–dare I say it–”Paulian.”
And that goes for RickG and his lecherous ass too.
#34
Does this prima facia case for statutory rape apply to every single mother, and father in this ranch?
What about the monogamous families with children? Why were those children taken? Further, where does the state derive ANY authority to take children that show no evidence of any harm?
And in all of this time there hasen’t been a single arrest of any adults.Weeks after the raid there are still no charges, and not even one credible accusation. But there are HUNDREDS of children taken with little more than a rumor that what those people are doing violates the law.
#36
Depends on how underage. If dad is 16 & mom is 13?
Mickey #5;
That answer’s ractually an easy one. ZERO fathers have been charged. Yet the state can keep ther children as it pleases.
Oh and by the way, the 5th Amendment says you have a right against self incrimination.
#40
Absolutely not. Didn’t intend to imply that if I indeed did. Just bringing up an issue that might be germane.
David Benzion # 39;
By leaving them with their parents until something is proven.
#45 Darren10
OK, so we know where Darren10 stands– clever, circumspect child-rapists can get their freak on free of government interference.
BigLove, what say you?
(conference call to attend, so get your licks in while I’m away from the keyboard)
I thought that the heart of the issue was respresented pretty simply in this exchange yesterday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/us/20raid.html?hp
“Judge Gossett, in approving the state’s interim plan for the family — that the children remain in state custody — but reserving the right to amend it later, had stern words for Ms. Jeffs, who said in a written statement supplied by her lawyer that she would do anything to get her children back and ensure their welfare as long as it did not violate the precepts of her religious belief.”
““That doesn’t give me a lot of confidence,” Judge Gossett said, staring down from the bench at Ms. Jeffs, who was dressed in a pale-blue prairie dress. “Your right to your religious belief ends when it violates the law.””
#46;
“Circumstancial-rapists” don’t get their freak on, absolute rapists do. Name ne, just one, only one, solamente uno rapist in the Eldorado YTZ compound.
Sorry, “circumspect rapist”
With such caring parents, why are 100 chidlren still unidentified? What posible reason could any of the mothers anmd fathers have for not identifying their child to expedite their situation and resturn?
http://www.ocala.com/article/20080520/APA/805200559
“So far, 168 mothers and 69 fathers have been identified in court documents; more than 100 other children had unknown parents as the hearings got under way. DNA samples have been taken, but the first results are at least two weeks away.”
David Benzion, you seem to be assuming that all the CPS allegations are true. Sort of like “weapons of mass destruction” not found in Iraq. You seem to dismiss the assumption of innocence until proven guilty.
I think the most egregious situation that has come to light thus far is the old man (age 28) who married a 19 year old female. BTW, how many pregnant “minors” did CPS actually claim in court versus that 31 out of 50 number they were batting around earlier. I think is is less than 5, with all the fathers being underage as well. Now, what are the odds of that percentage (whatever it may be) occurring in the general population? I don’t know. Still just waiting on 1 to be named - or 1 to even be investigated.
Mike S,
You’re correct, that really does represent the heart of the issue.
With that statement, Judge Gossett has revealed his prejudice and should be immediately removed from these cases. That simple statement proves that he buys into the states case that crimes have occurred. Without a single charge, much less conviction.
Judges really aren’t supposed to work that way, are they? Even to those of us with blind spots?
Get to you in a bit, Mr. Benzion.
#46 David:
How many men have even been charged with child rape, let alone convicted in this group?
OK, so we know where Darren10 stands– clever, circumspect child-rapists can get their freak on free of government interference.
Surely Benzion is not trolling!
9. Meglet
This from yesterday’s Chronicle story:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5789935.html
#50 - Key words mean something. “…have been identified in court documents…” That means that if they papered the wall with birth certificates, Texas state issued ID, drivers licenses, and whatever else they could find and CPS arbitrarily decided to declare those documents as fakes (as they admittedly did in a couple of cases), then they can make such claims. I seriously doubt that no one knows who the parents of 100 of the 400+ children taken away are. Get real. Some of CPS’s earlier claims were at least plausible.
“And when was the last time CPS required a son to remove a picture of his convicted, criminal father from a book?”
When was the last time they encounteretd a group that worshiped a convicted child rapist as the walking and taking equivalent of Jesus? Remembering of course that he promotes that same crime in that role as being the will of God.
#53 - Sounds like he was merely quoting the law to me. Is it acceptable to sexually abuse children if it is a part of one’s religious beliefs?
#58 - So who sexually abused anyone? You know, if abuse occured, and I am not entirely certain it did, then let’s see some charges filed, some men put in jail. There’s been plenty of time, unless CPS is just dragging this on waiting for the next “crisis-du-jour” so they can attempt to quietly let all this go away.
The abuse here is not sexual, it is constitutional abuse. But then again, it’s all “for the children.”
See #4. “We’re from the government and are here to help.”
Mr. Benzion,
In an attempt to answer you, I think I should break this into pre and post raid suggestions. And, because I think that harm is imminent, I’ll focus on the here and now (post-raid) first.
Remember, this is post raid, innocent women and children are already being held in captivity.
1) Immediately, as in today, move all women and children back to Eldorado with one and only one condition - all men must leave. Obviously, this is another abuse of state power but you’ve conceded all points on that. From the statements that the men have made, I think it is almost a guarantee that they would accept this offer.
What would this do to achieve your stated goal of the state protecting the children?
a)Guarantee that no physical abuse would occur, a guarantee which they cannot make while they have children scattered around the state in foster care. In fact, statistically, there are children being abused in foster care today because of the state’s actions.
b)Guarantee that no sexual abuse would occur. No men, no sexual abuse. There have been no reports of women sexually abusing children.
c)Lessen the trauma to the children. Although they would not have their fathers and thus continue to be subject to that trauma (no jokes, you said you weren’t being sarcastic) they would have the benefit of their mothers and siblings, familiar surroundings and in general have a higher level of comfort than being with strangers in a foreign place.
The men agreed to leave the “compund” so that the children and mothers could stay.
Not too long ago there were no birth certificates, marriage licenses, girls married as early as 15 …
Now even so called conservatives believe that the government MUST have documentation of our births, marriages, schooling, immunizations, registrations …
We are free!
The way to have handled the situatin was to get establish the probable cause of the quilty parties and have them carged and arrested.
“I share so many of your concerns… but your tenor has a a vaguely “ACLU arguing about Guantanamo” feel about it… it almost seems–dare I say it–”Paulian.””
Oh, the horror. The humanity.
con’t
2)Force CPS to follow their own rules.
What would this do to achieve your stated goal of the state protecting the children?
Presumably, these policies have been put into place to protect the children in the first place. Not following them makes no sense. They should meet and get to know each family, each child. The only objection to doing this is that it is a massive case. Not the children’s problem. The state took this action, they should insure that proper protections are in place. By not doing so, they are, in my view, harming the children - exactly the opposite of your stated purpose.
There is a touch of irony in that this is all going on at the Tom Green Courthouse in Texas. Mormon fundamentalist convicted polygamist/child rapist Tom Green just a year ago was released from his 6 years in prison. He is currently married to the child he was convicted of raping.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/24/national/main513227.shtml
con’t
3)Have individual hearings not related to CPS. Find out, person by person if they have been abused or not. If they haven’t, tell CPS to take a hike. If they have, simultaneously file charges and have CPS at that point take over. Let CPS work an individual plan to determine if the mother of that child was complicit in the abuse. If so, remove the child to either a foster home or preferably, a relative that is not a FLDS member.
On the criminal side, this would allow the men that have abused children, if any, to be prosecuted and removed from the family. The men that have not abused anyone can be exonerated. As it stands, the public perception is that all men in that group are criminals, even though the facts do not support this perception.
Mikey #55;
Like I said it’s not like people concerned about the way the state has handled this case wolud ever be caled a child rapist-lover. Never, not here on LST, particularly not by the owner of this fine blog.
There are probably many other things, maybe better things, that could be done right now to lessen the trauma and restore the civil rights of these people but I need to tend to other business for a bit.
Mike s #63;
As per posts prior to this, please take care in using “Mormon” with these “fundamentalitsts”. “Mormon” is a term used to identify the members of the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints based in Salt Lake city, Utah. “Fundamentalist” is a term used to identify those who practice polygamy. These are two very distinct and individual people and members of disctinct, individual churches. To avoid confusion and to bring uot clarity in who you’r talking abuit, please use care and not use these two terms simultaneously.
#59;
From my estimation, the state needs 3 1/2 months at least, assuming all the DNA labs in the state of Texas works *only* on these DNA analysis during that time. My former term of “indefinitely” seems more and more accusate, especially according to this thread where CPS isn’t following court orders. So the state just might hold these kids indefinitely.
#63 Mike S
With his penchant for publicly claiming a constitutional right to polygamy and to conjugal relations with 13 year old girls, I expect to see Tom Green in the news for some time. Do not be surprised to see his his name in lights as in, Tom Green vs Juab County Utah on the docket at the Supreme Court in the next couple of years.
#67
Are they any different. Don’t Mormons follow Jospeph Smith who was also married to multiple wives, of which many were only 14 yrs old.
If we are going to chastise this group for following a guy in jail that promotes the VERY thing the founder of the religion supported.
Seems like it is the same to me. Just a 150 yrs or so later.
#55, 69;
Yes, Tom green sems like one freaky dude. Any reason he was released (time served, time served w/good behavior?)
I also recall that one teacher who had a child w/ a 13 year old student and later they decided to shack up or get married when he was 18.
Between California gays and Utah polyamorists, the juggernaut against the traditional concept of marriage rolls forward. The thinking prevailing in many state high courts doesn’t bode well for heterosexual monogamists. Hopefully, that old idea of man and woman marrying will still be an extant ritual when it comes time for our grandchildren to marry.
#70;
Both the mainstream LDS church and the FLDS church claim to follow the teachings of Joseph Smith. But as it stands today, the FLDS as well as several other groups broke with the mainstream LDS contending various points of doctrine. Joseph Smith would have nothing to do with any of these churches except one. My personal belief is that that church wuld be the mainstream LDS church, but, of course, all others are free to believe what they may regarding Jospeh Smith.
My main point previously was that the term “Mormon” was a term designated to member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. so instead of repaeting that lengthy name frequently, “Mormons” was derived, most likely because they use the Book of Mormon as scripture. so to use “Mormon” with any but the mainstream LDs group easily creates confusion and lumps all these group together into one. Suchj is not the case. the mainstream LDS churhc (ergo; “Mormon” church) is separated and distinct from all other churches using “Latter Day-Saints” in their names.
As for Joseph Smith’s marriages, he was married to multiple wives but I honestly do not know the ages. I do know, however, none were done under the legal age of consent, nor did it break and existing state or federal laws. It was not until the Edmunds Act in the mid 1880s that polygamy, specifically in US territories a the states had their own sovereign power apart from the US gov’t to regulate and define marriage, that polygamy became illegal. soon after that act was passed the LDS church officially abandoned polygamy which resulted in divisions and thus these fundamentalist groups breaking off and forming their own churches focusing heavily on polygamy.
(Follow the link below and read posts181,183,186-192 (191 is my favorite), and 197 where I spoke at more length on this subject)
http://lonestartimes.com/2008/05/16/texas-flds-raid-early-costs/#comments
BigJolly– your post-raid suggestions sound reasonable to me (which is precisely why a government bureaucracy wouldn’t think of or follow them). All Hail the Hanukkah King!
Darren10– I’m not calling or insinuating that you (or others who share your concerns) are “child-rapist lovers”. *I* share these same concerns.
But that doesn’t blind me to the reality of what was going on in that compound.
I’ll admit that my knowledge of what was happening there isn’t enough to justify permanently removing children from their parent’s custody, or throwing people in jail, and I don’t claim that it is… but that doesn’t mean I need to therefore accept the idiotic proposition that we can’t reach some conditional conclusions about what was happening, or that the State has no role to play in this situation.
Here’s a hypothetical– imagine there is no government at all. (Yeah!)
A family in your neighborhood preaches polygamous marriage, isolates women and children from contact with all outsiders, banishes young men from the home and it is obvious that girls under the age of consent are being impregnated, obviously by much older men.
At a certain point, do you and your neighbors have a right or the authority to intervene? To “liberate” those children from having THEIR rights violated?
Well… it depends… if you view children as property, then no, you don’t. Parents get to do whatever they please with their property, and no authority outside the family has the right to interfere.
My God teaches me that all human beings have inalienable rights… and just as much as the government can’t properly exercise authority to violate my inalienable rights, parents can’t properly exercise authority to violate the inalienable rights of their children.
If I have good reason to believe that a family down the street is raping its children, I’m gathering up some fellow neighbors and I’m going to go kick down that damn door and find out what’s going on, and if I find something, I’m putting an end to it.
The family whose door I kick down… well, I suppose they’ve got a right to try to stop the rest of us from infringing on their liberty… hope they’re armed, ’cause I’ll be.
The State of Texas, in this instance, was simply doing a job that I’ve outsourced to my government… to interfere when there is a good reason to believe the inalienable rights of children are being violated.
Which, of course, doesn’t mean they’re doing a very good job of managing the situation, obviously.
I am not an LDS but did study the LDS and their doctrine in preparation to meet a couple of LDS Priests, that a friend of mine and I were invited to meet. I do not remember if they were Melchisedek or Aaronic. I think that one of them was a Melchizedek Priest. I am not an expert but I am fairly well informed.
Are the FLDS “mormon?” The folks at latter Day Saints do not like the term Mormon, so I do not use it. Just out of common courtesy. I am of the opinion that the folks of YFZ are closer to the original LDS. Polyamy was only “dropped” because these uS were ready to go to “war” against Utah and the LDS wanted Utah to becaome a State. That is when their “prohet” received the new “revelation.”
Here are a few quotes of Brigham Young:
“…and he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is Antichrist.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 312).
“I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . ” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)
“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266). Also, “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).
“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, Page 218.) “The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood — was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, page 115). Note: the late Bruce McConkie who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated “There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events…” (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, page 742.)
I did did spell everythng properly in my mind. My fingers are the problem.
Dang. I did it again.
I did spell everything properly in my mind. My fingers are still the problem.
textpat # 72;
Hopefully, that old idea of man and woman marrying will still be an extant ritual when it comes time for our grandchildren to marry.
For our grandchildren and beyond.
73#
No offense but how do you know none of his wives were under age? Was there not a legal age of consent?
Plus in you other post that you linked and in this one you admit he had multiple wives, but you don’t know if they had sexual relations.
Come on man, do you really believe a guy had a bunch of wives ranging from all ages and didn’t have sex with any of them??
We are getting of topic here. Sorry.
I’ll try pre-raid thoughts now, which is a far more difficult challenge because of the mis-information spread by both sides.
To even begin, I need to trace back just a bit. The FLDS moved to Texas in 2004 when the laws were such that it was legal to marry, with parental consent, at the age of 14. The residents of the county were understandably concerned that a “cult” that believed in and, in Arizona, Utah and Colorado, practiced polygamy. They were also upset that this “cult” had purchased land under the false pretense of building a hunting resort.
They convinced their local rep to sponsor a bill raising the minimum age for marriage in Texas, with parental consent, to 16. (note, I only mention the age as background for why they probably chose Texas in the first place)
In the 2005 legislative session, Rep. Hilderbrand was successful in getting this law passed and it took effect on Sept. 1, 2005. The locals put a lot of pressure on the county sheriff to do something about this “cult” and this gave him more ammunition.
The ranch was raided beginning on April 3, 2008. The first public acknowledgment by the FLDS that they were not building a hunting resort but rather a religious settlement came on April 28, 2004, although it was suspected for months prior to the acknowledgment.
http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ040104.html
Again, the local sheriff, David Doran, was under a lot of pressure to remove them from the community and had four years to investigate.
Whew. Now I’ll start.
Jaime #75;
Neither the Journal of Discourse, nor the book known as “Mormon Doctrine” are or have ever been accepted as official church teachings or practices. They were both written by prominent LDS leaders but within the church itself all members are free to explore and ponder on the wonders that are God. What you find in those written works are the author’s personal thoughts, feelings, and opinions on whatever topic given. So yes, we believe in certain absolute truths among them are that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God and that Joseph Smith was a chosen prophet of God. But to say to deny one or the other or both places you as an anti-Christ was Brigham Young’s personal thoughts or manner of expression. I cannot think of one talk or teaching that declare the Church’s official position in such a manner.
Yes, one reason to abandon polygamy was so that the Utah territory might join the Union as an official state. but it goes deeper than that. As I told Mike S in the link posted previous to this post, desiring to join the Union, which Mormons always wanted to do ever since their exile, and to practice polygamy which by that point became illegal and enforced by court decisions, is contrary to the 12th Article of Faith where Joseph Smith declared on behalf of the Church, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in cobeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” So President Wilford Woodruf took the matter to the Lord and that’s when the church took monogamy, marriage between on e man and one woman, as its official position and made it a requirement for membership.
And don’t fret about your grammar. It’s good to strive for excellence but still my grammar is very questionable.
David B # 74;
So when I said children should remain with their parents until something is proven to be wrong you replied by saying that “We all know” my position which is to let a circumspect rapist get his freaky on, why?
Regardless, nobody advocates a governmetless involvment.
I would like the state to have taken any woman or child with direct evidence of rape and or abuse and work from there. But the state took everyone they wanted to. I strongly suspect that the YTZ compound would be much more forthcoming and cooperative had the state not went in and took “everyone”. Now the burden of proof is exponentially more difficult upon the state than had they focused on a small few instead of everybody. In fact, if anything inproper did happen, I suspect that arrests or warrants for arrests would have been dealt out by now had the state taken only those which evidence pointed to inproper conduct. But, as it stands, NOBODY has been charged and no charges seem to be in the horizan.
Okay, so, how should this have been handled in order to keep your stated goal in mind - protect innocent children.
A call was received at 11:32 pm on April 29 to a crisis hotline. A female claimed to be 16 years old with an 8 month old baby. She said that she had been repeatedly beaten, was being held against her will, that her husband was 49 and had 7 other wives, etc. This information was forwarded to CPS.
On March 30, she called again, repeating the information, which was forwarded to CPS.
What would a normal response have been to an emergency call like this? Remember, the sheriff knew these people, was friendly with these people, the men at least came to town daily to conduct business. In four years, with tension noted, there had not been a single instance of violence or even threatened violence.
I submit that a normal reaction would have been for the sheriff to head out their immediately. Danger was imminent. If I cared about the children and if I received a call like that, I would have been running there. And I suspect most people would.
Instead, they waited four days. For four days they left a 16 year old, eight weeks pregnant and with an eight month old child in a situation in which she claimed that her husband was beating her and she was being held against her will. She claimed that her last beating was on Easter Sunday, 6 days prior.
Is it a rational approach for an agency that claims to put the best interests of the child at heart to leave a young, pregnant mother and infant in a situation like that?
I don’t think so.
So that is my initial thought on what I would do pre-raid - I would have investigated the actual complaint. Immediately and with pistols and shotguns at the ready.
#79;
No offense taken but I agree to take care and stay on topic.
As for knowing that Joseph Smith wives were all of legal age, I remember on Townhall.com with Galleghar (sp? and the male commentator, not the female) a big Mormon debate (prompted by Romney’s running for pres.) where that very question was raised and those who responded in favor with the LDs Church cited their sources and all of which indicated that Joseph Smith married nobody under any legal age anywhere. I just don’t remember the exact ages. It would be good to dig up info on that though.
As for the sexual relations, polygamy was not done for sex. it was not uncommon for people, though definitely not all, to enter int polygasmist marriages and not engage in sexual activity. Also the absolute unavailable evidence that Joseph smith had any children with any of his wives save with Emma Smit, his first wife, is also compelling to conclude there was no sexual relation. To say in absolute terms there was no sex I guess cannot be done but it sure does seem that way to me.
I’m with BigJ on everything he says…..so, I don’t need to type.
Plus, he says things better than I do.
Now, as to your broader point - what was this agency supposed to do to protect children in light of the fact that in other states, members of this church had been convicted for sex abuse of minors? And the fact that in other states, it was “known” that they practiced polygamy, even if there were not convictions? And in light of all of the information provided by those claiming to have “escaped” from the “cult” (quotes provided only for highlighting, not editorial)?
There are a thousand things they could have done. They had four years before this bogus phone call was dropped in their laps and they used it to shut the place down.
For one, they could have obtained court orders for wiretaps, banking records, surveillance - all sorts of things. The way judges are now in Texas, they could have gotten anything they wanted. Why didn’t they?
How about interstate commerce? The FBI was on scene at the raid, where were they for four years?
One of the most reported items has been that the FLDS would send girls from Canada and back if necessary. Why wasn’t this investigated? Could they not have gotten warrants for electronic surveillance for this? Sure seems like it given the ease with which warrants are obtained these days.
Rather than continue, I guess I’ll just say that the bottom line is that for four years, this caring agency did nothing. And even when presented with a tall tale of a girl in an emergency situation, this caring agency did nothing.
Forgive me if I find that disturbing. And please forgive me if I sound Paulian when I say that it looks to me as if the agency doesn’t care about these children much at all. If they did, perhaps they would have spent a portion of the four days in between the call and the first raid planning for the welfare of the children rather than waiting for tanks.
BigPolmy out.
I think the CPS mindset is widespread:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080428/COL04/804280375/1081
The powers of the state are therefore vested in prank phone calls. Let’s start making them (just kidding, don’t really do it) in the name of justice for the children.
#87 Fink, that is terrifying too. We have to do something about the power of CPS across this country. Either that or make them take I.Q. tests.
Darren10: DC not authoritative in the LDS?
Quotes of Joseph Smith:
“Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God–that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens…I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form — like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man….it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see….and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).
I’ve never quite figured out why non-Mormons like to argue with Mormons about what they believe.
But they surely do.
BTW, this thread is not about the Mormon faith, be it mainstream LDS or fundamentalist LDS.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132
To clarify, I am not LDS. I am an orthodox Christian. I do not find evidence that polygamy is condmened in the Old Testament and the New Testament is only explicit about monogamy with respect to qualificatins of pastor/Elders and Bishop/deacons.
Having said the above Mr. Smith’s rendering of Abraham’s designation of “righteous” because of polygamy is, to put it mildly, scandalous. Mr. Smith’s recollection on how Hagar became pregnant by Abraham incorrect.
DC 132
24 This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
(snip)
34 God acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, acommanded it.
36 Abraham was acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not bkill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for crighteousness.
37 Abraham received aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received amany wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39 aDavid’s wives and concubines were bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he dsin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ggave them unto another, saith the Lord.
Big:
I will let Darren10 have the last word. But the issue was raised whether the folks at YFZ folks were “mormon?”
And non-Christians like to argue with Christiaqns about what Chrisitans believe all the time. The issue for me is one of accuracy and honesty.
Jamie
If you are inte