A bit of breaking news:
The Third Court of Appeals has ruled that Child Protective Services did not have the right to remove children from the Yearning for Zion ranch last month.
The ruling comes as a result of a document filed by Texas RioGrande Legal Aid last month. The TRLA is the largest provider of legal aid in Texas, on behalf of 48 FLDS mothers that TRLA is representing in their child custody cases.
The way that the courts have ignored the legal rights of these mothers is ridiculous,” said TRLA attorney Julie Balovich. “It was about time a court stood up and said that was has been happening to these families is wrong.”
In the decision, the Court ruled that CPS failed to provide any evidence that the children were in imminent danger and acted hastily in removing them from their families. According to the Court, “The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the Department’s witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger.”
TRLA will be holding a press conference in front of the courthouse in San Angelo Thursday at 1:30 p.m. regarding this issue.
More here:
It is unclear if the children will be immediately returned to the ranch or what impact this will have on the ongoing status hearings.
Outside the ranch, an FLDS woman rushed up to attorney Julie Balovich and hugged her, crying. They both went onto the ranch, but did not speak with reporters.
Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said the agency just barely received word of the ruling. “We are assessing the impact it may have on our case. Any decision regarding an appeal will be made at a later date.”
UPDATE: Read the opinion here.
The notion that the entire ranch community constitutes a “household” as contemplated by section 262.201 and justifies removing all children from the ranch community if there even is one incident of suspected child sexual abuse is contrary to the evidence. The Department’s witnesses acknowledged that the ranch community was divided into separate family groups and separate households. While there was evidence that the living arrangements on the ranch are more communal than most typical neighborhoods, the evidence was not legally or factually sufficient to support a theory that the entire ranch community was a “household” under section 262.201.
UPDATE 2: Can you say “Run, tRick, Run“?
Texas Gov. Rick Perry is reviewing the court order, but he’s leaving the response up to the state’s Department of Family and Protective Services, his spokeswoman, Krista Piferrer, told the Deseret News.
“Our office received a copy of the court order, and we are reviewing it. We are being briefed by DFPS, who is determining the next step,” Piferrer said, making it clear the governor was not named in the legal action.
“Was this a surprise? We’re not a party in the lawsuit, so you may want to ask DFPS,” she said when asked about Perry’s reaction to the ruling. But, she said, now that the governor knows what the court has decided, “we have to look forward to what the next steps will be.”
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Thanks for the update.
I post this in front of anyone who says, “see the system works”. Well, unless you prefer your children to CPS random strip searches without your knowledge or consent or presence 9you know, to make ssure you the parent is not spanking your child in Wisconsin but eventually in Texas too), I say that the system is not working. Parts of it, like in this latest YTZ compound raid ruling, do work, but the system of taking care of the children does not. Let parents do tha job please. I’ve yet to see an indentified “bad parent” in this YTZ case.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64829
And, lo! The CPS did bring forth a multitude of lawsuits.
And the taxpayer suffereth at the hand of the State.
Again.
And Again.
A belief system not being punishable by the State.
Wow, what a concept!
This sentence, in the context of a ruling that CPS acted illegally, seems to me to indicate that CPS zealots did exactly what they claimed they didn’t: Persecute people because of their beliefs.
Shame on Texas.
Long Live BigJolly!
Isn’t vindication great?
This is just the beginning of the legal mess that CPS has started. Look out taxpayers because we are going to pay for this.
This is great news. My next question is, how does Texas become a model state for CPS reform to make this department a stellar example of how children and families should be treated in times of family upheaval? How does the state strive to protect children so their rate of ” 4 more times likely to die” in the care of CPS, changes?
I am not going to breath a huge sigh of relief until the mama’s and the kids are in each others arms. I don’t trust anything to come out ok yet.
Now, before we go too far, let’s remember that the 3rd Court of Appeals is in Austin, and not exactly the most conservative court in the State.
The Supreme Court is quite conservative, and conservative courts often side with the government. There is a 100% chance the state will appeal this.
So there’s a ways to go.
Leave those people alone. Let ‘em live in their little commune in the middle of nowhere and they aren’t bothering anyone.
Soon to be a major motion picture.
This is quite encouraging, but RickG makes a good point. The light at the end of the tunnel could still be an oncoming train.
Along with any form of government power comes the opportunity to abuse it, which leads to arrogance. And that pretty much defines CPS in this case.
I hope it works out for the best. But it seems to me that polygamy and child rape won here because CPS couldn’t get it’s act together.
#12 Or a couple episodes of Big Love
Maybe at least someone will now take a look at the actual facts of this case rather than just listed to CPS stories and take them at face value. And this doesn’t even include the kangaroo who led the charge for CPS in San Angelo (may she burn in hell along with Janet ElSterno)
StacyE #14;
Polygamy, yes, it is winning for CPS’s incompetence.
Child rape? Who? Unless 16 year old brides are illegal. Apparently it’s not w/ parental consent.
CPS reform is imminent. Dan Patrick has his work cut out for him.
As pointed out by #16. We don’t know concrete facts. But it is the FLDS belief that when a women hits puberty she is ready for marriage and child bearing. Puberty can and usually does, onset much earlier than 16. I know that most here have disregarded everything that came out of CPS … but they said that girls as young as 13 were pregnant.
And yes … if they were all married at 16 and their parents said it was okay. Great. The 16 year old girls parents stood by and watched as she was married to someone old enough or older than her father. Who already had 25 kids and 5 wives. Great. Yeah justice.
The bastion of suppresion of women and child rape continues. If and when they get their children back, they will raise stakes and go back to Utah and Arizona. Where another compound will be built, another crop of children born, and more young girls married to men who trade them like baseball cards and more young men run off.
This is not over yet, but anyone who has been paying attention to this case has been getting a good education in the power the state has over its citizens, its ability to lie and distort the truth, and its ability to run roughshod over anyone who gets in their way. Now there is not a stronger law and order, support the police type person other there than I am, yet I was howling about the absence of facts from the get go in this case. And we wonder why the state cannot get convictions of criminals and death penalties when called for - it’s because the citizens no longer trust their government to tell them the truth - plain and simple. Whether it’s a ticket for slow rolling through a stop sign or cold blooded murder of a police officer, the state can no longer be trusted to tell the truth. What a shame.
And because of the blundering of CPS - they will have further proof that the government is only here to hurt them, and the cycle of suppression and mind control will roll on.
I fine it extremely interesting that the news on the radio said CPS is still trying to get back onto the ranch. The members living at the ranch have said there are a few children there, but they are visiting with those who have come in from other areas of the country to help. So I will extrapolate to believe, CPS wants the visiting children too. Some heads need to roll.
StaceyE #19;
The main question is if marrying a 16 year old it’s illegal. I agree it’s repulsive to think (any adult considering marrying either of my daughters when they’re 16 is very liable to get hurt) of but is it illegal. Despite my misgivings to the idea, it isn’t uncommon for people to think in such a manner. The legal age of marriage w/parental consent in Texas pre YTZ compound was 14 I believe and that was a common age of marriage throughout our own history.
So, if marrying at 16 isn’t illegal, what authority does CPS have and what rape is ocurring? polygamy *is* illegal, shacking up with multiple women isn’t, but guising it as marriage is. So the gov’t does have a case in that regard; and assuming whatever evidence their heavey-handed raid may be used in court, they may prevail. But as of to date, I have learned of no (legal) child rapes in the compound.
#23
The legal age of consent in Texas is 17.
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.005.00.000021.00.htm#21.11.00
So by your premise, since they weren’t legally married to all of these men, the rule is if the victim is within 3 years of the offender, than they are free from charge. So if these girls were having sex with men older than 21, they are all guilty of statutory rape.
Under the age of 16 to marry requires a court order. But - since many of these aren’t legal marriages, as you point out … these are also statutory rape cases.
According to news stories, the Court found the evidence was “legally and factually” insufficient to support the claims of CPS and the findings of the trial court.
That is a strong statement. It basically means they had nothing in the way of credible evidence.
Now if this paper is to be believed … than these people should get their kids back as they did nothing wrong.
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9256669
CPS messed up huge. They threw the baby out with the bathwater. Because - if the press and the FLDS speaking out are to be believed - some of these were legal marriages with children who were not mistreated.
staceyE #23;
Isn’t that for sexual relations outside of marriage. I do believe that undermarriage sexual relations is perfectly legal betwen an adult and a 16 year old (married w/ parental consent).
#25 - I read they were using the FLDS charter as evidence of wrong doing. And that was why the court threw it out. No actual evidence of individual wrong doing, just the charter.
#24;
Now I got your full message. You got me. Great point. Child rape it is.
We may not agree with their beliefs, or practices, but they are a religion. If they break state laws,prosecute those who do. If we do not stand up for their right to believe as they believe, even though it’s different……… we have no right to expect anyone to stand up for our religion when we are assaulted. We have allowed the Amish to live quietly and productively, Hari Krishna’s ( who knows if they even have sex) hehe, and we allow those who practice Islam to do so. For Christians to remain free, these people must be.
Yes - but as they have multiple wives, only one wife is legal. The rest of their “wives” if under 17 at the time of intercourse, would be statutory rape cases.
But - CPS messed up. So we may never know. Maybe the charter thing is all baloney and they don’t believe it. They all marry girls that are legal and have children and raise farms and are happy.
If a Muslim has sex with a child, it’s a felony.
If an Amish person has sex with a child, it’s a felony.
So if these people were having sex with children. It’s a felony.
The problem here is that the folks involved don’t think it’s a crime, therefore, it’s unreported. And even if the children aren’t happy - what are they going to do? Stand up against all of their relatives? That would be so daunting!
They have no advocates.
Thus far everything CPS has said outside of the courtroom has proved to be false or at best misleading. Every time they have been asked to produce evidence, they hedge. The latest is when their 14 year old star victim turned out not to be pregnant and has never been pregnant; god knows how many they held as juveniles only to have the court rule they are adults as demonstrated by birth certificates, drivers licenses, etc. Phoney call to start with was identified immediately by Arizona AG as a ruse, and Texas DPS knew it was bogus before they went to court the first time. Lies, lies, and more lies, and yet we are all still waiting for them to find that 1 case our of 465 that they (CPS) can hang their hat on - and I am truly convinced they will lie in court if they have to to try to save their asx.
Than what we believe is that CPS is wrong.
And that a group who’s leader who is serving time in Arizona for 2 counts of rape as an accomplice (forcing marriage on underage girls), is full of angels who have broken no laws.
I’m sure the fact that Warren Jeffs is their leader who has 50 wives is just a coincidence. None of these folks believe in polygamy or child brides.
Evidence wise the courts have not been satisfied, so the just thing to do is to let the children go home. But in my heart of hearts, which has no legal bearing on anything, I don’t think these people are as innocent as you think they are.
In 2005 the Texas changed it’s laws so that 14 year olds could not marry. Since we have no proof there are 14 year olds pregnant now on the compound. Perhaps, these people obeyed the laws and stopped the practice when the law was changed.
As to the polygamy question……. ask me in 5 years if it’s still illegal. It’s going to depend on what affect gay marriage has, and if gay marriage is upheld.
This my dear lawyer and law enforcement friends, is one of the reasons why you follow due process.
#24 & #29 addendum;
Ps, that’s proving there was sexual relations which could be proved but with the state’s run of a muck handling that may be even harder to prove.
So it’s child rape by assumption. I do hope they can use the Bishop’s Records in court.
Are there any lawyers reading this that can weigh in on this question?
CPS was originally tipped off (according to news stories) via phone call from someone claiming to have escaped from the compound, had been forced to marry underage to one of the men there, and had born a child to him at a very young age.
This prompted the action of the CPS to swoop in and round up everyone and put them in protective custody and separate the children from their mothers.
Subsequent reports have indicated that the original caller lied about her identity, and is believed to be some advocate against this group.
Since CPS went in based on a false report, would this then invalidate any evidence that may have been uncovered, subsequent to the raid, on child molestation and rape? I’ve heard of evidence being thrown out of criminal trials because of improperly executed search warrants.
If so, then the real crime was committed by the CPS in not dotting their I’s and crossing their T’s to verify the validity of the initial report. Should there not have been an effort by CPS, or other law enforcement, to obtain a sworn statement face to face with the accuser to ascertain the legitimacy of her claims…or to even verify that she was who she claimed to be? CPS seems to be awful trigger happy, and this time it is going to cost the state taxpayers a bunch.
I don’t believe that anyone on this thread is condoning illegal acts. All that is being asked is that the guilty parties be investigated, charged, and tried - leave the rest of them alone. How many charges levied to date - none (if you consider the arrest warrants initially issued were later dropped). If you have evidence, let’s get on with it, otherwise, forget it.
I’m with you Rastus…….. But this could cost the state tons of money…… I am not optimistic the state will just roll over.
Look at the quote from Perry’s office.
#39;
And that’s why the state should have focused on evidence of child abuse, not seeing young women woalking with children, assuming they’re minors and then picking up all the children. Focusing on the evidence would have produced more evidence quicker and we could probably have charges by now. But in the manner the state has conducted itself, there should be little wonder why the YTZ compound folks have not cooperated with the state (legaly binding to cooperate of not). also, all evidence to this point shows those taken int custody have cooperated bt have been treated guilty until proven innocence.
Also, the original two month time limit is running out. We’re in the 7th week to date.
If you suddenly replaced every CPS employee with an infinite number of monkeys, I seriously doubt that they could ever come up with a worse plan of action than we’ve seen in the last few weeks.
We’re not sure yet what crimes have been committed behind those walls. But it is now abundantly evident that completely innocent families were forcibly torn apart, judged guilty prior to arrest, and punished for nothing more than free association with religious nutjobs. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
My first impressions of this situation persist. If the goal is protecting children from imminent abuse, there are lots of better ways to do that.
But if the goal is persecution on the basis of a person’s religion, they’re off to a pretty good start.
I thought that Gov. tRick was bragging on what a fine job CPS was doing last week. Now he doesn’t even know that they are a state agency.
RickG
I meant to ask you a while back about the very subject covered in BJ’s quote of the opinion above. I was curious how they applied one or two search warrants for CPS to what are apparently multiple households. Somewhere along the line I forgot about it, but it looks like it was an issue after all. The children of the FLDS and the State of Texas deserve much better than the current crop of imbeciles in charge.
#41;
Yup, TPerry wants to stay out of this. Didn’t he say earlier that the state will use whatever resource necessary to crack down in this case after CPS took everybody?
Keep skating backwards Perry, you’ve lost your skating partner.
When this is all over, let’s all meet for a beer… I don’t know about y’all but this really upset me, and I had a few rough nights after April 3.
Sorry AW - haven’t had a drink of alcohol since 9-14-94, and I still remember that one, if you know what I mean.
OH Rastus… good for you! Well, what I was trying to say, if this ends quickly and the kids and moms are united…. let’s celebrate……. coffee?
Mark the calender. I’m about to agree with Houstondem, for he hit it right on head of the matter.
No government should be allowed to rip apart a family without due process. It was evident from the start that due process was not followed.
But wait, it’s ok to not follow the proper procedures if the government and public all think the people involved are child rapists? I don’t want to live in that country. One annonymous phone call is all that’s needed for me to lose my children until I prove my innocence.
That’s the major problem here folks. It’s supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. The government has the burden to prove its case. They have to have evidence of wrong doing and danger before seizing children from their homes.
The Appeals Court just ruled that CPS didn’t have any evidence to back their claim that the kids are in immediate danger. These kids need to be returned to their families immediately.
Government agencies can’t just do what they want to citizens. They have to follow the rules. Anything less and we find ourselves living in a police state, where the government can do whatever the hell it wants, our rights be damned.
This is a good article from the Deseret news about the finding today. There is another group the state has gone after.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700228198,00.html?pg=2
Basara, One of the children’s attorneys who was from Houston said it really well. She said instead of the big guns of the state going after a family who don’t have the resources to fight, this time the State was going after another Big Gun. This group had the money and power to fight the state.
10.7 billion dollar surplus divided by about 450 kids and 200 adults is what?
american woman;
I’ll just have a Cerry Coke. And I say let’s meet at BigJolly’s house.
Do they make decaffeinated Cherry Coke?
38 strongbow and 45 texpat
strongbow, I don’t know the answer to your specific inquiry about the questionable phone call, but it was not the basis for tyhe court’s opinion - see my discussion of the opinion just published.
texpat, I link to the whole opinion in my new piece. They did not really focus on the warrants per se, but on the evidence available to the State (the effect being the same, I suppose). They surely found the state’s action to be overbroad, even without specific picking apart of the warrants.
I find it interesting that this was a per curiam opinion, without a specific author. I suspect they anticipate a en banc rehearing by the entire 3rd Ct of Appeals, followed, of course, by an appeal to the Supreme Court.
AW, that’s good to know. Now I know that I have to build a sufficient sized money war chest in case the big gun of the State of Texas ever is aimed at me.
You know, for actually saying something negative about government when it takes more of my taxes and increases its budget spending every year by 10%.
Why do I think the people here who are slamming CPS would be the first ones screaming to the top of the State Capitol if CPS had dropped the ball on children that were being abused in any other case?
Legal marriage age for childen in Texas is 16 with parental permission since 2005. Any girl 16 who has a child, stands a good chance that she became pregnant at 15 and that, my friends, was illegal and considered statuatory rape. Also, since the age of consent in Texas is 18, not 17, when it comes marriage, any girl under 18 who is married without parental consent was violated. And sex, with a minor, without a legal marriage, is in itself, against the law.
Now we go to the parents themselves. If there are girls 16 and under who do have children, the parents are also copable as they allowed abuse to happen.
Many of these girls were taken from the Utah compound and brought to Texas WITHOUT their parents since they have women who served as surrogate mothers (think dorm mom).
While your support of the FLDS may be considered admirable in some circles, personally, I would rather rule on the side of caution than allow this cult, of the convicted Warren Jeffs, to continue their practice that any girl who reaches her mensus is fair game for some old guy. Got any doubts about that? Just go sit in the ER of any charity hospital and watch for battered and abused kids to come through that CPS has dropped the ball on.
Now on to the “false call” theory: the CPS took that information on what is called “good faith”. That is all that is required. It was after their initial investigation did they go to court and request the removal of the children. Let’s not forget that the FLDS lied when CPS first arrived and said there was no “Sarah” at the compound. If your mother was in a nursing home and a call came into an abuse hotline that she was being abused at that nursing home, would you want the charge to be investigated or would you want Tx Family Services to make sure the caller was legit first?
TexPat, the search warrant was a blanket “property” warrant which allows the search of all buildings on the property. If the police get a search warrant on you, they are allowed to search your garage as well as your home.
As to the Austin court, it is one (if not THE) most liberal count in the state. I have no doubt that CPS will take this to the Tx SC. If they have filed an appeal, the kids remain in custody until heard by the TxSC.
Retire05,
I would submit that allowing civil rights to be violated because you “think” something might be prevented is not cautious at all. But as you have seen, many people agree with you.
I have no problem with arresting those who commit crimes. I believe in due process, and so does this court.
58.
Or perhaps our support is for the idea that the State should follow the law, even when they think somebody’s beliefs are yucky.
Surely you’re not saying it’s okay for the State to ignore the law so long as the group they are opposing is sufficiently unpopular?
Whatever the outcome, I don’t think I’ll be doing any celebrating.
Rick, that can’t be it. It has to be that we support the FLDS; otherwise, they can’t call us names.
Retire05,
You’re right. Silly me. I retract all my silly notions that CPS and Texas authorities have to follow due process.
I’ll gladly cheer them when they decide to remove your kids and/or grandkids from your home with no evidence of that they are in immediate danger in the name of caution until you can prove your innocence.
It’s for the children’s sake after all, right?
Should I make the call now?
There are proper ways to investigate crimes. That wasn’t done and everyone here knows it now.
Hamous,
I agree. I’m mad as heck. I do believe that young girls were forced to marry while they were too young.
CPS and the Texas authorities went beyond the boundary though. Instead of diligently investigating and arresting the actual criminals, they decided that all were guilty and removed the children from their homes.
That’s scary on so many levels, it’s not even close to being funny.
It’s like arresting Barack Obama for associating with Willaim Ayers and charging him with Ayers’ crimes. Even if Obama agrees with Ayers’s terrorist actions, Obama still has not done anything wrong or committed any crimes.
Same thing here. There probably are child rapists in the FLDS compound.
However, it’s clear now that many of the people there have not committed any crimes, whether they be polygamy or statutory rape. The state had no right to remove the children from their homes.
Now, this whole case is a bigger mess than it had to be. The state and CPS is going to have a hell of a time proving any crimes now that they were wrong on so many other counts.
It didn’t have to be this way, and it’s all because the state and CPS did not follow due process.
#58 The only thing I am “slamming” the CPS on is not having their ducks in a row before they went in, to make sure they were responding to a valid complaint.
As a result, I am worried that they have now invalidated all “real” evidence they have gathered as the result of that, and that any actual crimes that may have been committed cannot be prosecuted because the evidence is considered “tainted fruit”.
I am in no way defending the lifestyle decisions of the polygamists. I am criticizing how the investigation seems to have been handled that led up to the initial raid. So to answer your question, yes, I would prefer that any law enforcement or social agency have their facts straight and be on solid legal footing, and not responding to some unsubstantiated story, before taking children away from their families.
I’ve been grilled by CPS before when I had to take one of my children to the Emergency Room (ER was required to call them apparently), and frankly I was very put off with their attitude that they were going to take all of my children unless I had a darn good story about how my child was injured. This even after the Sheriff’s Deputy that responded with the ambulance told them they were chasing a phantom and there was no case there.
The organization has got major problems from my perspective.
#61, RickG, and on what do you base your opinion that the CPS did not follow standard procedures when removing these kids?
I love how all of you are armchair quarter backs but have no real inside track (like personal testimony from one of the Rangers present at the time of the initial investigation or speaking with one of the six CPS workers who entered the compound before the court order to remove the children).
Go ahead, Rick, make that call. If you think you know who I am and if I even have children/grandchildren. I see you have that whole crystal ball thing going for you.
Personally, I don’t care if CPS is investigating the FLDS or you, Rick, but I do care if there is an accusation of abuse that is it at least followed through. CPS did that. But then, I see that you didn’t answer the question: if someone called an abuse hotline and said your mother was being abused in nursing home, do you want TxFPS to investigate first or verify the caller first?
stongbow, you are also saying the CPS did not have their ducks in a row. Do you know what policy and procedure for the CPS is? If so, please, quote it for all of us so we will know as much as you. So you were “grilled”? Are you even aware that there are certain standards when it comes to child injuries where doctors have to call CPS (they didn’t just magically show up, they have to be called by the ER)? So they hurt your little feelings but never mind the children that slip through the cracks because people don’t resond to real abuse enough.
If these parents are not ivolved in abuse of the FLDS children (and I have a feeling that we will learn that some were abused, at least sexually) they will get their children back.
Damn, I feel like I am in the midst of a bunch of “it’s the government’s fault” 9-11 truffers.
How about letting this case play out. Then we will know for sure if the CPS acted inapproiately or not.
Excuse me, but the state has had these children for approximately 6 weeks……. It’s not that hard to tell if a child has been sexually abused. Dr’s can examine a child. The state admits they have no proof. The state admits, they knew there were adult couples living at the ranch with their children, in a monogamous relationship, but took their children anyway.
Age of consent in Texas is 17, not 18. And there are thousands of underage girls in HISD who are pregnant. Where is the CPS’ zeal to find their daddies?
We also have laws that say the mentally deficient can not marry, nor can they have relations with somebody who knows they are mentally deficient. So why are liberals allow to marry?
Retire05, did you happen to read the court’s ruling saying they did not follow procedure and the law? If you missed it, here it is:
http://www.3rdcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/htmlopinion.asp?OpinionId=16865
Kick that spit bucket somebody! HAL’s got his face buried in it.
retire05,
I’m beginning to see how you got your handle.
Here is what you said:
What part of CPS not giving a rat’s ass about this phone call do you not understand? If you answered a phone call from a distressed hotline worker telling you that there was a 16 year old pregnant female with an eight month old child being held capitive and being beaten, what would you do?
Would you wait four days to get more tanks on the way?
If yes, then I’ll ignore you, your opinion doesn’t matter to me.
If no, then how do you justify people with guns on their belts not going in?
/just tired of the crap